Monsters’ Den Geniuses: I Need Your Skills
Alright guys: Tell me about the skills in Book of Dread.
What are the best / worst skills for each class? Which are essential, and which are useless? Share your thoughts or links with me in the comments.
At the point where I’m designing the skill system for the next game, it’s useful to have as many outside perspectives as possible on this.
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about 1 year ago
Ranger : Heal, if we need a healer, we get cleric. I never understand why you put this skill on ranger… 0% synergy with other skill… probably the most useless skill in MD:Bod. Just my thought anyway… His other skill awesome…
about 1 year ago
OK..thanks for asking….:D
Please make also useless skills for some classes..i think, in wow cataclysm blizzard is removing fire and frost ward for mage class because : “spell without clear use or something like that.”…fu$k !!! i like when there are many spells with different use and if a spell should be only used once per playing Godfall because is necessary its a good spell……
I dont know which classes do you want to implement in game.so.1.TANK..standart tanking abilities but please make sure that some other classes could be also off tanks in some situations.{or a must}………..2. i dont like very much standart talent and skills systems in most of the new games(check wow talent system)..i think that putting your points in one specific tree like heal impede others trees so you have 0 points…i want that a combinations of skills would be possible…exaple..putting your 25 skill points into fire rain also allows you acces to deep frost skill > ice rain and some skills around ice rain in tree…or something like that…… 3. Finish> sorry for my english and sorry if my speech doesnt relate to godfall but i really dont know what you are planning to make …(i dont wait same system like in MD:BoD….
about 1 year ago
And skills in MD BoD were awesome all…..except barbarian class,,,,in fact barbarian is subclass of warrior…(like conjuror subclass of mage…
about 1 year ago
But this is only question of names…and skills for barbarian were awesome..but i didnt like name: barbarian
about 1 year ago
Charge and Whirlwind were the only skills i ever got for barbarian, Heal All and Litany of Pain for my cleric (sometimes holy light), Electrical storm is the ONLY additional spell i got for my mage, and ranger, i always get hail of arrows, hunters prowess/pin occasionally. Honestly, those were the only abilities i found very useful more often than not.
about 1 year ago
The melee range requirement for mage/ranger spells seem utterly useless to me, as I will never have them in range if i can help it, and the only times i can’t help it, my arrangement is messed up already so i wouldn’t have time to get and equip that ability.
Clerics to me seem like they are too much of a mix of units. Mine are never fast enough to be worth any damage unless its with litany of pain, or smite, because their armor is so heavy. i basically just use them to absorb damage and heal.
Barbarian abilities seem like practically all of them COULD be useful, but are very situational, so it makes it difficult for me to commit to spending a skill point on an ability i doubt i’ll use.
about 1 year ago
I have to have the armor boost, cleave, and shield wall for a warrior. The conjurers sprites were basically worthless, along with the melee stuff for mages and rangers
about 1 year ago
I disagree with the melee for rangers. I did a spear ranger from the back and it was beast mode.
about 1 year ago
the conjurer was amazing in theory… but by the time you pumped out a critter the battle was over or it was very little help.
perhaps have a way to custom name/pic the summoned critters… (get some necromancer flavor in on the game).
about 1 year ago
Warrior:
Best: Shield wall, overwhelm (if dpsing)
Worst: eh. none are bad. Some are situational though, like resolve tends to be pretty lame if you have a healer.
Cleric:
Best: Anoint… 75% of the damage of your most powreful spells for 30 mana.
worst: IMO Litany of pain. 60 power for a ho-hum nuke all. Chances are you’re better off anointing a nuker instead.
Essential: Heal and heal all, duh >=P
Note: healer passives suck, this is probably intentional since clerics are pretty useful otherwise.
Barbarian:
Best: Dismember, Pulverize, whirlwind. Whirlwind is IMO the best aoe nuke in the game. Even on hard it can wtfpwn an entire trash stack during a boss fight if you annoint first, along with hurting the boss pretty bad.
Worst:
Intimidate. 70 power is just too much, Poor barb wont be doing anything worthwhile after chowing that much mana for such an indirect benefit until the fight is already mostly decided.
Note that there are a more than one bad barb skills, however the good ones are GOOD, and his passives are excellent.
Ranger:
None of the ranger skills really stand out as being best to me, though most are still good.
bad: Healing lore… Nature’s balm is just too much better on a tough fight IMO. And for easy fights, chances are a simple nuke can save an allies’ life (by killing the target),while a small heal might not.
Mage:
Best: Electrical storm. It’s a great reliable aoe nuke. The Mana cost makes it so you don’t sacrifice the ability to cast much the next turn with minimal regen (for such a big nuke I mean).
Worst: Fireball.. Ok so it seems good at first when you have no variety. But before long, the times I find myself casting it are few. Maybe if the splash damage did more than or equal electrical storm, or if I didn’t have to worry about nailing my own allies, it would be worthwhile. But an all-round inferior spell that simply enjoys mana efficiency isn’t very useful on the mage. Especially given their passive helps with mana, and power siphon can really fill up that guage.
Rogue:
Best: Poison attack. It’s so cheap, and so powerful. A true boss killer (unless they are poison immune). Even those with resistance will be taking an alarming amount of poison damage with a few smacks of this.
Worst: Flash powder… Most bosses have 145% chance to hit or whatever. Flash powder on a non-boss is pretty silly, nuff’ said.
Conjurers haven’t appealed to me enough to play enough to comment on.
about 1 year ago
Although i love how we can design a character skill, but in MD : BOD garin didn’t give us enough skill to experiment with…
Warrior : If you try to have a bow warrior, but there are only 4 skill that he can use (leaving 1 skill place unable to use).
about 1 year ago
Conjurers :
Best : Whirlwind. Very fun to use by the way. Can cause enemy melee attacker totally useless.
Worst : Image. I can’t really say how the curse is useful since enemy has 10x hp than player..
about 1 year ago
Rogue: Sneak atack for killing enemy second line quickly poison and pierce armor to get rid of armored enemies were esential for me. Flash powder maybe the worst since holy light from cleric affects all enemies.
Warrior: I love the execute skill, grants one dead if you have full energy. Leadership also very interesting. I don’t think any of the skills can be considered worst, all of them have some use.
Cleric: Holy light, Heal all, Revive essential for character focused on healing. The worst for me maybe Litany of pain also is not a skill for cleric I think.
Mage: Electrical storm, Cosmic prison and Power syphon give you all you need for a mage. The worst Arcane armor since you have healers and even resurrection skills I find no use for it.
Ranger: Hail of arrows and Pin. Nature balm maybe the worst, I didnt use the ranger too much.
Barbarian: Whirlwind is the best, intimidate worst. Didn’t play too much with barbarian…
Conjuror: Eldritch aegis and the golem to take damage worked for me, also call soul in case your cleric suffer a sudden case of death. The other skills were useless for me.
about 1 year ago
Not the most powerful skills but my favourite::: Mage: Flickering Flames, Arcane Shield, Incinerate
Cleric: Holy Light, Heal with chance to dispell all negatives, Annoyit
Warrior: Adrenaline Rush (that immunity to stun’
Ranger: Hail of Arrows, and that shot which has chance to kill creatures instantly
Conjuror: Healing Sprite and Golem and vortex
about 1 year ago
In general I really liked the fact that you could play around with the classes and do different things with them, like have a melee mage or a bow rogue, at least on beginner. Most skills seemed like they would have some use in some build. That said:
Warrior: Shield Wall was never my thing, but Defiance and Adrenaline were just bad, especially since you had Resolve and Inspire. Execute was also terrible since most of the bosses were immune to instant kills.
Cleric: Shield of Light was a waste of a skill since you couldn’t regenerate power afterward and it was so expensive. I never really put enough into INT to make Smite and Litany of Pain worthwhile.
Rogue: I always wished some more of the rogue’s skills scaled with INT so Poison would be more useful, especially since it was one of the only skills you could use with a bow.
Ranger: Really not a bad skill in the bunch.
Mage: I guess you could use Cosmic Prison to set up a Coup de Grace for your Rogue, but ultimately I don’t think either skill was worthwhile. Maybe if you could be stunned for more than one turn… I didn’t like Invisibility either, but Arcane Armor was awesome.
Conjuror: I liked the idea that you could clog up your opponent’s board with the Vortex, but there weren’t many monsters who used summons. Also I more often than not found myself just using my staff bolt.
Barbarian: The only reason I used Taunt was vs. the Minotaur if I got shuffled to the back row. I also never used Jostle, though perhaps I should have given how much I like Charge. Pulverize and Dismember were mostly useful against bosses, but I wouldn’t mind seeing a Barbarian aoe that did little damage but debuffed several of your foes. Intimidate was plain awful, though. 70 power is far too expensive. If it were cheaper it might make a nice run-up to Reckless Fury, but battles tend not to last that long. Could be good in Survival mode, though.
about 1 year ago
Useless Skills IMO:
-Fervor, Litany of Pain from Cleric:
If you’d need a nuker, you’d pick a mage, though litany isn’t too bad if you lack a mage. If you’d need melee damage, you could either choose a warrior, a rouge, a barbarian, they all do it better. Fervor is a wasted moveslot
-Invisibility, Arcane Armor/Incinerate
Invis is pretty much useless, as 30 Power drain + a turn the mage doesn’t attack you waste a lot of time. The only thing it’s useful for, is when you would heal another party member and have to skip the mage. (Pretty Rare due to the Heal All Skill which is almost on all clerics)
With Inc. and AA. He has to fight in the frontline where he has to use AA at once or get slaughtered. And due to the fact that he can only wear cloth armor, he doesn’t get access to the speedy leather armor. The result is a dead mage before he could take a turn (Or a severly crippled one). Even if we assume that he survives due to team support, the damage he dishes out isn’t much more than a rouge or a barbarian could do.
Force of Nature:
Really the only skill that needs a sword. On top of it, it has only 60% accuracy which makes it extremly unreliable.
Coupe de Grace:
The Rouge taking a turn with a stunned enemy in range (usually melee) is rather unlikely, making CdG a rather gimmickly move.
Jostle:
Before each battle, you get to line up your party, this is probably the most useless ability ever. The only point in the game where you have a chance to use this in a good way is against the minotaur. And having a skill only against one enemy is a bit extreme.
Dire Wolf:
The Wargolem does everything better than the wolf
about 1 year ago
Lol..coup de grace is perfect..you just need quckness timing….and mage with cosmic prison or hutner with pin….In fact…I liked all abilities…..also serated blade on and incinerate on mage…….and narute balm on hunter…
about 1 year ago
I think a big problem with a lot of skills (particularly the conjuror’s summons, but a number of the buffs in general) is that if you just attacked normally, most battles would be almost over before they would really have any effect, unless you deliberately draw out the pace of the battle (in which case you really need a cleric with holy light and heal).
about 1 year ago
Hey Garin if you have ventrillo i could talk to you about the abilities and describe why and how some abililities are better or worse. The main thing that you should be concerned about is all of the classes abililities should fit into what that classes strategy is or does to benefit your whole squad. Example is why do other classes have heals if there is an available cleric? If you get back to me or email I could describe what abilities fit what character to a greater extent. Thanks for making the games book of dread was SERIOUS!
about 1 year ago
I dont think classes should be too overspecialized. Right now, only the cleric and the ranger can heal at all. (And to an lesser extent the summoner) So you’re forced to pick one of them. (The ability to heal in battle is a must have) It would suck if a class would be like “This class is heal only and sucks in every other aspect” or “All this class can do is getting beaten up.” etc.
“Lol..coup de grace is perfect..you just need quckness timing….and mage with cosmic prison or hutner with pin”
Thing is, two turns and the power used to kill that certain mook aren’t worth it. Most enemies die in two hits anyway (with the use of skills).
Suggestion: Uber Mooks
To justify the effort of using skills on lesser monsters which don’t work on bosses (stun, insta-kill) you could make promoted versions of monsters that aren’t pushovers. For example, we have the Neophyte from the cultists. You could make a bulkier version of him, that summons something stronger than the aetherguard when he takes is turn. He could be named like Divine Martyr or something.
about 1 year ago
Warrior:
best: inspire me already helped several vessem against bosses
worse: no
Essential: Resolve optimal to hold a further round up the cleric heal
Cleric:
best: smite cause enough damage and not spend that much power
Worse, holy light costs a lot of power
Essential: heal and heal all
conjuror:
better: call soul revive with full health
worse: Wall Of Shadows
Essential: bloodspirit has the magic to heal
ranger:
best: envenomed arrow causes much damage by poison
Worse, swiftness
Essential: nature’s healing balm to heal 10 per turn helps keep the mage alive and conjuror
about 1 year ago
Pretty much the poison, annoint, and super powers were the best things of BoD.
Though I think much variety can be made. As for skills, I think armor could have a skill slot, weapon use, and even inate skills based on class. In the end though, It’s all you garin. So good luck buddy.
about 1 year ago
Warrior: Power attack: 7\10: Good for early on, when you don’t really have much other option. Good for later on when you need that bit of damage to end a difficult fight. Defiance: 3\10: Okay, you can’t be reduced below one HP. Whoopity fricken doo. Unlike when used by the gargoyles, you don’t heal from it. Cleave: 10\10: Get this ability. Put your warrior in the middle of the front row. Watch the enemies die. Damage equal to your standard attack, plus hitting all enemies in the warriors range? Sign me up. I suppose you could build your warrior so that putting him there would be a bad idea, but thats more player error. Adrenaline: (DOC) 5\10 (DOT) 7\10: VERY useful for the den of terror campain, since the fear sowers can stun your guys with frightening accuracy and low energy use. Less so for Den of Corruption, since there are no fear sowers, but still. Resolve: 4\10: I guess its good if you have no Cleric, but again, player error. Shield Wall: 2\10: No. Just no. It increases your defence. Good. It makes all enemies target your warrior, makeing the defence useless. VERY bad. Inspire: 5\10 Good for the end game bosses, who can both summon new enemies to make your life hard, and have high health to make it harder, so this one enables all units to take out both. However, its only good against the end bosses. Execute: 4\10: If you want to end a encounter with a Demonic Spider (think the Medusa Heads from castlevania for you non-tropers, though an in game version would be the arachnoids and basalisks) and don’t care about energy, I guess it can be used… Problem is, all the bosses are immune to insta-death. Bloodlust: 6\10 Mostly useless, due to the fact that yes, if you one shot an enemy, it gives you power, less so due to the fact that most enemies stand on the two hit side. Overwhelm: 3\10: Wow… Just… wow… not only is the only possibly usefull aspect of this one rendered inacessable by the fact that warrior is really fricken slow, its further stomped by dealing less damage then most of the (far better might I add) other warrior abilities. Skip it. Passive abilities: Both: 9\10: This really is a no-lose situation. One way, you have a chance to cause the enemy to take a second blow from another ally, the other grants you a nice defencive boost, with less of shield wall’s making that boost useless. Overall, the warrior is very much usefull.
Cleric: Heal: You. Need. This. I’m not even going to rate it. If you get rid of it on the skill bar (box?), your party gets a full fledged Darwin award when it goes and gets you killed. Smite: DOC: 5\10 DOT: 1/10: Its better in Den of Corruption since you usualy start out with undead, meaning you get to take advantage of its damge boost more. When not on a floor with undead, its completly useless. Protip, game desighners: Skill that only work on a type of enemy that occurs this infrequently are not going to get used much. Holy Light: 1\10 See above, with less of the good-to-start-with. The only enemies you’d want to reduce the accuracy of (bosses) have high enough acurracy that it would make no differance. Heal all: 9\10: Again, you need this one, as it can heal away the pain on all units, and get rid of poison, making 3-poison-drake-3-greebler fights much less painfull. Just take it. Its only con is power cost. But that is a small price to pay. Annoit: 7\10: It increases your units damage. Take it. sure as hell make the tougher bosses easier. Revival: 8\10: Takes a lot of mana, but very good in the long run, as otherwise if an unit falls in battle, its down for good. Litany of Pain: 4\10: The name is accurate. Its painfull, for you. If you need a nuke, get a mage! Or a barbarian! Or a warrior! Purify: 6\10: Meh, just go with benediction (the only really usefull passive ability for clerics) and get the same effect while healing. Only thing this one has on Benediction is resistance increase. Shield of Faith: 5\10: Takes a lot of power, and next turn you can’t recover that power. The only good thing is the inability to take damage. Fervor: 7\10: It deals damage that, with a good mace, can rival the warriors power attacks. Very, very good. Passive skills: Benediction: 7\10 Wrath: 2\10: Benediction is wonderful. It grants you a chance of removeing that irritating curses, and with decent speed planning, stuns. Wrath is much less so. It gives a small chance to stun with the still useless smite skill. Clerics are a nececity. Its been hammered in by the posts above me. I don’t need to go any farther with it.
Conjuror: Lets get this out of the way. Conjorurs are pretty much useless. There are no good abilities for them. Most of them are either average (wargolem) terrible (mana sprite) situational (banish) or simply rendered redundant by other, better classes (blood sprite, vortex) with that out of the way, lets continue: dire wolf 3\10: Easily outclassed by the skills that the conjuror gets later, like, say, the wargolem. You’ll have it early on, and then forget it later. Wall of Shadows: 4\10: It falls into the situational catagory. It makes the final bosses a whole helluva lot easier, as they can curse your adversaries and remove the bosses curses on you. Mana Sprite: 2\10: They can give power to your party. Whoopity fricken doo. They will get mauled by ranged enemies before they can help you. Blood Sprite: 5\10: Again, its rendered redundant by a Cleric. If you, logic, statagy, and common sense be damned, go without one then, yes, the blood sprite is less uselss. But again, player error. War Golem: 7\10: The only really usefull skill that a conjuror has. It sadly only realy gets to the battlefield in time for the fight to be almost over anyway. Handy for the final bosses though. Vortex: 5\10: Another one of those-reduntant-by-virtue-of-other-classes spells. Its the only direct damaging spell the conjuror has. You’re still better off with a mage. Banish: 5\10: Its only really usefull on the cult levels.Sure, its not entirely useless on the final boss of the Den of Corruption, but still, you’re better of just usign ranged attacks to kill the summoning enemies. Refresh Energies: 4\10 The direct healing ability. To bad it only works on summond critters. You’re better off with a Cleric. Eldritch Aegis: 5\10: Again! Reduntant by virtue (or sin? I can never really tell…) of better classes! God, you can’t have thought this class was a good idea, man! Call Soul: 5\10: Why. Now you aren’t even pretending the conjourer is anything less then the abomination child of Cleric and Wizard? Each of the classes should have there own set of strengths and weaknesses, without skills that are so very reduntant! Or useless, like with the few skills that aren’t! Although War Golem wasn’t bad. Passive abilities: Augment Strength: 5\10 Augment Health: 5\10: Both of them are okay to boost your summoned units health and damage. The problem is, they don’t give that much of a boost! Its the same problem as the rest of the passive skills. To little, and by the time you have points to spare, to late. In short, the conjuror is completly useless. Sure, some of his skills can be used in certain instances, and he has better gear options then the wizard, but its not enough to justify the postion. HERE is how I would do it:
Summoner (better name): More health then wizard, but less insta-damage. Relies on summons. Basic skills: Skeleton Warrior: Basic melee unit. Gets EXP for kills. Every on-hundred points gets higher levels and higher stats, gets more EXP for tougher monsters and less when at higher levels. Come to think of it, that’s how the summon system should work for all summons, saving those that would not be permant like Illusions: Creates a wall of illusions to the enemy that the enemy must destroy before it can attack the party, illusions cannot attack. End starter summons. War Bird: Ranged attacker, deals decent damage from a distance but low health, and gets EXP of course. Dragon Hatchling: As it levels up, it gets bigger, and higher damaging attacks, at level 3 its a Dragon Adolecent, and has fire breath (deals moderate instant damage and nice damage over time), at level 6, its a Dragon Adult, and has flight (becomes incapable of being targeted for one turn) at level 9, it is a Dragon Elder and has ice breath (stuns an enemy and deals small amounts of damage) and Lightning breath (deals nice amounts of damage to all enemies), this makes the Summoner less usefull early on, but in the long run a very powerful unit, Summon Angel (or other good spirit of your choice): Can heal units and remove negative buffs that enemies cast. As levels get higher, more negative buffs can be removed and more positive ones (health regeneration for instance) can be added. Heal summons: Heals all summons a percentile amount based on health of the unit, for instance 50% or 75%. In the end, its all up to you. But please, make healing abilities useable outside of combat and poitions useable in combate.
about 1 year ago
Wow…. Wall of text much…
about 1 year ago
Its worth noting that I am aware that that the ideas I proposed for making summoners useful (making summons get exp to level up as they deal damage to enemies) worth a damn would be a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) to program. I just find it equal on (EXPLETIVE DELETED)ness to the rest of what you said you had in mind. Huh. I must have forgotten to pay the swear fee.
about 1 year ago
I would have to agree completely with Ghaleon and ChaosBladeDC.
Some skills we can definitely do without. For example the ranger’s healing skill, and the mage’s melee attack.
Skill improvement hmm… i second that, especially with skills like incinerate. Great skill but the damage (at best) is the same as electrical storm. It only hits a select number of enemies and you run the risk of burning your own allies in the process.
(For a more detailed list, see Ghaleon’s post above)
Also, thank you ChaosBladeDC for pointing that out as well. The most mind-numbing aspect is that you get great abilities that allow you to stun or insta-kill, but they are for the most part, worthless to use. Most enemies can be slain easily enough without wasting those suffix/prefix slots on the items being used. As for bosses, they are all virtually immune so there is no real practical situation that would ever call for them to be used (unless you are bored lol)
Corrections/Notes:
The above comment regarding blinding/lethality actually did come in handy with the new survival mode. The monsters there become considerably more difficult and being that they are not bosses, it can help HEAPS in later waves. Also the conjurer really isn’t much of a help in the normal campaigns period. IMO his only use is held in the
survival mode (WarGolem, Refresh, Aegis)
I find the complaints vs the cleric incorrect. It’s great to have such a versatile character. Every character should have it’s pros/cons. If he is going to be a healing tank then yes he should be slower. To improve his speed for damage benefits not come at the expense of speed like every other character? Not only that, but reducing his intelligence, deeply dissolving his healing abilities. Even making a slow-moving “pure INT” cleric equipped solely with THICK heavy armors and imbued with protection while only utilizing skills such as heal, Latiny of Pain, and smite. I must add that smite proved unbelievably useful in the first waves of survival as well (lv 1, 21, 41, etc) allowing heals & rebuffs for the next oncoming wave.
Lastly, i agree once again with ChaosBladeDC… UBER MOOKS!!! Since the normal mobs are unworthy of wasting mana on, and the bosses are immune, we gotta have a median somewhere that allows us to adequately use various other skills instead of the popular buff/heal-all or nuke-alls
about 1 year ago
Oh and i also forgot to include, that the class-mixing is an awesome idea *Thumbs Up*. I cannot even begin to recall how much playability it added because i just wanted to start over to test new builds (for example an axe ranger). lol jk on that build but u get the idea
Thanks again Garin for such great games and ideas!!
This generation is lost in a typical action-mmo era and lacks any worthy dungeon crawling …until now! xD
P.S. Couldn’t you pick a better race to side with besides the dwarfs?? hehe
about 1 year ago
NO!!! defiance is one of the best skill and mage meele attack is just cool…Im playing currently Fall of telunos and i love tank warrior with defiance and shield wall……and all buffs….and mage melee attacks are just good….and hunter nature balm is super just for 100% poison resist……………but one thing in fall of tellunos….PUNISHING BLOW:This is just crazy because the only thing to dispell punishing blow is Heal The Target repeatedly and wait for lucky dispell heal (about 21% chance ‘
about 1 year ago
I have to harshly disagree with the fact the the ranger heal is a waste – if not for that, you are FORCED to pick a cleric for your group, because it’s the only class left that can heal your group. (The conjuror can do this only to an extremly limited extent)
about 1 year ago
Well that’s sort of the idea, clerics are supposed to be the healers of the group lol. Besides, rangers already have enough “Hp Help” from nature’s balm (which is awesome!) especially for helping to keep those war golems alive hehe =)
requiemx, i understand you like those certain build types, but it’s obvious you haven’t gotten very far down into the dungeon. And by that i mean lvl 100+ on survival or 400+ on the normal campaigns. If you did, you would realize that the monster’s attributes grow exponentially, far surpassing that of the heroes.
Note: Benediction can have more than 21% chance of activating. It gets 4% per 1 point into it. At level 25 (25*4) it gets 100% chance to dispell effects after healing a party member. This is another reason why rangers do not need the skill. The cleric’s version is much more handy.
about 1 year ago
Sorry I know this is a bit off topic, but while i was thinking about it..
If there is also going to be a survival mode in MD3, or even an idea for improving MD2, there should be gold rewards after each wave or possibly after each 20 stack of waves. I hate spending countless hours playing through 70+ waves of monsters just to wind up back at the beginning with no gold. It’s cool that i can continue playing with the same party again, but wouldn’t it be nice to win a few thousand gold for all that hard work so players can at least buy a couple more items that might appear in the shop and optimize their build a little bit? It would be a handy tool to allow players to swap for new items that they think might improve on a build to get farther in the waves, consequently improving the player’s ability to construct a better all-around team with.
Just an idea, cheers!
about 1 year ago
I’m reading a lot of comments that I don’t really agree with at all. Garin: trust your instincts man, I think that is my only advice.
Conjurers are useless? I don’t agree at all. I won the game without having a cleric, and having the conjurer’s resurrect spell was the only way I could have pulled that off.
I could write as in-depth a thingee as DaemonNIC but I don’t have the time right now…just want to say please keep some healing/resurrect stuff (like the Ranger’s heal) in the game so players aren’t FORCED to have a cleric or other pure healing class in there party.
Please make it so the classes can really be mixed and match, as opposed to like a more boring WoW-type style, where you have to have 1xTank, 1xDPS guy, 1xHealer , etc. Prefer more general skills as opposed to super-specific skills…
Or WHAT IF you make half of the skills for a class specific to that class, but for the other half you can pick, you can pick them from a skill pool that are available to all classes. Oh damn that would be cool.
Or you can multi-class DnD stlye by taking a 2x exp penalty…
about 1 year ago
Ya I’m definitely more a ChaosBlade kind of guy than a Cetra kind of guy myself, reading the comments above.
I would guess that is partly sort of a new-school gaming versus old-school gaming thing. Personally I think having such strict guidelines for classes (i.e ‘every party needs a cleric because they are the healers and you need a healer in a party lol’ ) makes for much more boring gameplay, because you can’t really find your own interesting and cool party, you are more forced just to conform to the only really viable party, which is sort of lame.
about 1 year ago
I’m sorry if i gave out the wrong impressions here. It’s not that I want the cleric to be the only “healer type”, i just don’t think the ranger needs it because of the balm ability that they already have for regenerating. Sorry for any misconceptions.
Perhaps it is old school vs new school but i don’t see it like that. I myself am a fantasy rpg developer also, and when I am trying to think of decent skills, not only do I want them to be useful in almost any situation, but I try to go into greater detail with them. Examples being separating skills that affect a constant amount vs skills that affect a percentage. Another example would be fighting a lvl 400 hydra with 60 million HP. Would it be better to use a level 100 fireball dealing 100k per hit or a simple spell like poison that simply reduces HP by 10 percent every round? Sure that 100k would be massive damage at low level but when the numerical factors become so huge, you almost have to resort to percentage instead.
In conclusion it sounds like a fair amount of the players of this game are generally happy with the way skills are now. Personally I could still be happy without any changes also. My suggestions are merely my own opinions and ideas.
Btw, I like that idea about half class skills and half taken from a general pool. That certainly would be neat.
1 more suggestion… how about more passive skills? ^^
about 1 year ago
I like the idea of having some more passive skills; maybe something for the barbarian that drained life, since Reckless Fury would have been even more awesome that way. And, come to think of it, it was only slightly awesome to begin with.
about 1 year ago
As far as I can tell, you have three pretty vital skill types: the kind that do lots of damage to one monster, the kind that do damage to a crowd of monsters, and healing. Most of the classes had a way of doing the first two, and they did them with varying degrees of efficiency: e.g. cleave was cheap, but it only hit the first row while electrical storm was more expensive, but more powerful and hit everybody. The thing was, you didn’t have to have a certain class along to take out a boss quickly, since a lot of them could do it. You did often need a rogue, usually for the accuracy boost (probably one of the most useful skills out there) but also for crippling a boss so a warrior could overwhelm it.
The problem with this ideal is healing: clerics are the only ones who do it really well, and you really have to specialize your ranger for him to be effective at it, and even then the regeneration takes time. The conjuror’s healing powers are just weak: occasionally useful, but weak. Ideally you would have a healing ranger in the same party.
The obvious (and obviously flawed) response is simply to give more classes healing skills. It’s a nice idea, but you’d have to sell it to me as part of the class package. I could see regeneration or vampirism being imparted pretty easily, though, as a way of mixing things up from straight healing.
Just thoughts, obviously. Despite some of the flawed skills, BOD has been surprisingly replayable.
about 1 year ago
Long post ahoy!
I think a simple way to make the conjuror better is to make summons persist between battles – like when the random adventurer joins your party.
Now, if I don’t mention I skill I think it’s more or less OK as is.
In general I dislike abilities that require off-class stats like poison and envenomed arrow. Increasing those abilities requires weakening the basic attack and all other skills. Also, I dislike the ranger and mage skills that require a melee weapon. Those classes are so much better with a bow and a staff. But I think there’s a better to handle that. I’ll talk more about that later.
Warrior:
I feel the cost of execute is too high. Overwhelm would be better if other classes could reduce quickness or if it also worked on stunned enemies. Maybe the warrior could have a shield bash as a new skill.
Cleric:
I’ve never cared much for their passives, purify or shield of faith. Maybe the passives would be better if wrath applied to all of the attack skills.
Others have mentioned issues with holy light and litany of pain – maybe they could be combined to make a better skill.
Ranger:
I don’t like the creature lore passive.
Rogue:
Elusiveness passive – just shifts the damage and debuffs to another character maybe even a poorly-armored back row one.
Hide – I’d rather do damage now. Was too nerfed in MD:BoD minor releases. I say replace it.
Coup de Grace – Requires a faster character or setting up with a slower character. I usually have slower characters knock down the enemies after the rogue sets them up. Replace this one too.
Thief’s luck – I’m kinda eh on this skill.
Conjuror:
Eldritch Aegis could be better or be replaced.
Sprites have way too few HP and go down way too easily. Maybe they could share attributes with the summoner?
I think the Passives could be better.
I have a lot of issues with the mage and barbarian skills so I’m goint to post those in a separate comment.
about 1 year ago
continued…
Mage:
I don’t like the low stun chance of Freeze. I would like it if that increased with intellect or level or something.
I don’t like how Cosmic Prison buffs the enemy.
I don’t like the melee range requirement for Incinerate. That is not compatible with a squishy mage.
I dislike invisibility for the same reason I dislike the rogue’s elusiveness.
Barbarian:
I like to do single-class challenges so I don’t like the Barbarian’s inability to use a spear or any ranged weapon. If that isn’t possible I’d like to see the Barbarian given a ranged attack like an axe throw.
I think the brutality passive could use a higher activation rate – maybe 3% per point.
I don’t care for the Vengeance passive.
For Charge I think if there isn’t vertical space between the barbarian and the target Charge should work but do less damage and knock the opponent back (like Vortex)
I didn’t like enrage, jostle, intimdate, boast, last stand or reckless fury and rarely used them.
Personally I would like to see the following passives or changes to existing passive:
Warrior’s Armor Proficiency – also lowers quickness penalty of heavy armor.
Barbarian – replace Vengeance with passive that adds stun chance to attacks.
Rogue – repalce Elusiveness with passive that adds blinding to attacks.
Ranger – replace Creature Lore with passive that adds lethality to attacks.
Mage – passive that adds health drain to attacks.
For making the mage and ranger melee classes – what if their skills had different uses based on what type of weapon was equipped? For example, a ranger equippped with a spear could use pierce to do a spear lunge. A mage with a sword could use Freeze to do a boosted damage attack with a stun chance. But I think a sword mage would need some kind of passive or ability to give them protection in the front row. Otherwise they’re just going to get chewed up.
Also, I think it would be interesting if new skills could be learned from monsters – like draining shot, void portal, impact, etc.
about 1 year ago
Hey guys, don’t worry. There’s a lot here that I disagree with as well, but I’m resisting the urge to argue because that’s not what this post is about. I do have a definite vision for the game and I’m not going design-by-committee, but it’s useful to hear other viewpoints and I’ve already taken away some things from this exercise that make me think I’m headed in the right direction.
And yes, there will be more passive skills, and they will be drawn both from class-specific and general pools.
Also, Lethality is going away. In the new game, it will be replaced by that old standby, Critical Hit.
about 1 year ago
In light of the dispute with the mage’s melee skill, I have been toying with it recently trying to discover some ideas that could salvage the role of battle mages. I admit that the skill itself is great but upon further investigation, even with thickest light armors on and arcane armor activated, he just doesn’t quite hold up to the reputation that a warrior or barbarian has. Since the melee mage can only work int he front row, it just seems more practical to use WAR or BAR to dish out the same kinda damage while also being able to tank. The speed advantage just isn’t quite enough to be worth it.
Woohoo bringing crit back!
-thanks Garin for the update!
about 1 year ago
Please make a class for using spears! I loved the spear in MD:BoD, but no character really used it to full potential.
about 1 year ago
I hope garin can design skill enough for us so a bow warrior and melee ranger is viable at godfall
about 1 year ago
The healing skill for ranger is very important because its all you have without a cleric. Hide and sneak attack are important for rogues because they are important parts of the rogue. Jostle and enrage are unimportant barbarian skills but the rest are not. Cosmic prison and power siphon are bland and useless mage skills. Overwhelm is rarely effective and just pointless as a warrior skill, but the other skills for warrior are simple but effective and most are needed. All the starting skills for every class make sense and are good.
about 1 year ago
Continuation of earlier post:
There should also be a skill that works exceptionally well against greenskins. Dwarves and humans are easy. Smite kills undead. Hunters prowess takes care of deep creatures, but there should be a warrior or barbarian skill that easily eliminates greenskins at the cost of a lot of power. The mage and cleric passive skills obviously need work and so does one rogue ability (though it can be used effectively).
Also maybe a more powerful ranger skill (one that does extra damage), the best they’ve got is hunter’s prowess and clerics have fervor. When mages have incinerate and conjurors have vortex(can be very powerful), doesn’t it seem strange that the ranger only has hunters prowess?
New classes with new skills will also be needed:
A spear-wielding class (recommended)
A healing and helping mage-like class (needed)
Another type of ranger-like class preferably using crossbow (recommended)
A class that is like a cleric + warrior (paladin) that uses a two handed sword with -5 to speed or something like that(recommended)
about 1 year ago
I don’t know about anyone else but… I know I very rarely use any buff skills, group or single, (inspire, shield wall) at all when I can just go on without them. So, I was thinking of some ways any class could use those skills but still attack/heal. 1. Select a buff to use and a target for that, then select either basic attack or for a healer class basic heal. 2. Select a buff and have the option of either basic skill and 100% power cost or an attack skill and 125% total power cost. So for 2. Arcane Armor + Fireball would mean 75 power cost. This would make skills like Mage’s invisibility more worthwhile and give damage dealers a combo effect.
Now onto best/worst skills, warrior first . Execute: Worst, the only efficient use is against a leader or legendary, both of which are immune to instant death, making it pretty useless. Best: Bloodlust, great for tanks and damage dealers. Plain and simple.
Cleric (should be Bishop) next. Worst: Litany of Pain, Smite, Clerics have little potential as DDs but do well healing and tanking, making these out of place. Best: Heal All, well else fails I’ve been saved a lot by it.
Mage Worst: Cosmic Prison, Ensorcelled Blade, Incinerate, I’ve never once used Cosmic Prison and for the other two, Mages don’t belong in melee range.
Rogue Worst: Coup De Grace, same as Execute. Best: Pierce Defenses, all around good skill.
Barbarian and Conjurer, I’ve barely used them because I don’t like the play-styles so I wouldn’t really know.
Now some other stuff I thought of…
Changing power from static 100 though a new stat, Instinct and making skill costs relate to level instead of being static as well. Say 2 extra power per instinct and 10% cost increase per level, but I don’t know much about that would work out.
Making gear selection more customizable. Giving Mages and Conjurers ability to use medium armor at the cost of power cost-efficiency and making new weapons types so magic classes can use one hand weapons and shields or non-armor off-hand items. New weapons for this I thought of were short staves and athamaes.
Other new weapons:
Dual-wielding: Using two one-hand weapons at 66% attack power of the weapons combined. Ex. Sword 100 damage + Dagger/Mace 100 damage = 132 damage total. For close-range melee classes
Critical hits, likes poison and drain effects it should 100% based on items with new buffs and debuffs for it and critical resistance just like armor but only critical hits.
New class:
Deserter, left military forces in chaos to survive: Spear or two-hand weapon wielding heavy armor DD.Some skills could be:
Impale: Strikes a two targets in a straight line from the Deserter for 150% melee damage. Requires a spear and two targets directly in front.
Parry Stance: User receives 15% damage resistance and 20% damage reflection and becomes the sole target of attacks until his next turn. Can only be used in the front row.
Passive Skill, Discipline: Increases Endurance by 2% per rank.
Passive Skill, Opportunist: Increases critical hit chance by .5% per rank.
Hope you could get through it all…
about 1 year ago
I’d also like to see dual wielding, or at least some type of off-hand item for mages and barbarians who use a sword. For the dual-wielding I was thinking a one-handed ax which would do less damage than a sword and inflict a slight speed penalty, so you never just use one with a shield like you would a sword.
That said, I don’t really like the idea of a class designed around a certain weapon variety. I don’t mind the fact that rogues are the only ones who can use daggers, since I don’t know who else would. I would be okay with giving the barbarian a ranged attack, but he’d have to have more skills that buffed the party, I think. I don’t know why you let conjurors hold melee weapons, though. They don’t have anything that works with that range.
I do, however, really like the idea of insta-casting buffs. That would definitely speed up the game.
about 1 year ago
Hi there, and thank you for soliciting input from the fans! In terms of best / most useful skills:
Warrior: cleave, resolve, and bloodlust.
Barbarian: whirlwind & enrage.
Mage: electrical storm & cosmic prison.
Ranger: pierce, nature’s balm, hail of arrows & envenomed arrow.
Cleric: nearly everything! Heal, heal all, holy light, litany of pain, purify,
Rogue: flash powder, hide, thief’s luck, coup de grace, and both poisoncraft and elusiveness.
Conjuror: wall of shadows, wargolem, banish, call soul.
Good luck w/ further updates!
about 1 year ago
FAVOURITE SKILLS
Bloodlust, Overwhelm, Anoint, Power Siphon, Fireball, Cosmic Prison, Hunters Prowess, Pierce and almost all the Rogue abilities.
I liked all the situational stuff where if you timed the attack effectivly you could pull of a nice combo. I liked aiming abilities like Fireball and Pin a lot more than AoE’s like Electrical Storm and Hail of Arrows.
LEAST FAVOURITE SKILLS
Elusiveness. Most of the time the redirected hit would end up killing another weak character. I don’t even take this ability when using a Rogue now.
I never really used a lot of the buffs like Inspire, Thiefs Luck, Flickering Flames, Swiftness.. Too weak compared to other abilities, plus battles didn’t last long enough to justify using them.
Conjuror Summons and any damage ability that did not scale up with stats.
Melee abilities on ranged characters like Force of Nature or Ensorcelled Blade. Not bad in theory except that characters could only use one weapon which meant the Ranger would always have a bow and the Mage would always have a staff.
about 1 year ago
I usually run Rogue, Rogue, Warrior, and Cleric, so most of my experience is with those classes. I only played Ranger twice, so those impressions will likely be shallower.
*Presented first is the condensed version. Following that, in the huge blocks of text, are the rationales.*
Condensed Version:
Key:
Essential: Nearly every build should take this skill, and keep it in a slot (if applicable).
Useful: Most builds benefit significantly from this skill, and use it enough to give it a slot.
Situational: Most builds could use this in a notable number of situations. Often worth a slot.
Limited Usefulness: Few builds could use this, and only in one or two situations.
Nearly Useless: Most builds would exclude this. Making this type of skill useful will tend to require the devotion of a build, or a cooperative set-up with another character.
Ranger:
Essential: Pin (drops to Useful by mid/endgame), Creature Lore
Useful: Pierce, Vitality
Situational: Hunter’s Prowess, Hail of Arrows
Limited Usefulness: Healing Lore, Nature’s Balm
Near Useless: Focus, Swiftness, Envenomed Arrow. Force of Nature (it *might* be situational instead, but this is a really costly skill. Giving up a bow is a high price to pay.)
Rogue:
Essential: Sneak Attack, Pierce Defenses, Poisoncraft (when it’s high enough)
Useful: Poison (after you have Poisoncraft)
Situational: Sap Strength, Create Opening, Hide, Elusiveness
Limited Usefulness: Thief’s Luck, Cripple, Flash Powder
Nearly Useless: Coup de Grace
Warrior:
Essential: Inspire, Bloodlust, Leadership (when it’s high enough), Armor Proficiency
Useful: Execute
Situational: Shield Wall, Defiance, Power Attack
Limited Usefulness: Adrenaline, Cleave, Overwhelm
Nearly Useless: Resolve
Cleric:
Essential: Heal, Heal All, Revive
Useful: Smite, Annoint, Wrath, Benediction (possibly Essential)
Situational: Holy Light
Limited Usefulness: Fervor, Litany of Pain
Nearly Useless: Shield of Faith, Purify
Rationales:
Ranger:
I played this once as an one-hit-killer with Hunter’s Prowess and piles of Lethality, and the other time as a suppressor using Pin. Both times, the Ranger also served as an opportunistic killer that took down the injured creatures.
Development:
-Hunter’s Prowess Build: All stat points into Dex. The importance of stats on equipment is Lethality first, Dexterity or Accuracy second, and survivability or Power Regeneration third.
-Pin Build: All stat points into Dex. For equipment, the primary stat is Power Regeneration. Secondary is Dexterity. Tertiary is survivability.
Skills:
I never used Force of Nature, Focus, or Swiftness. I played Ranger before Book of Dread, so I’m not even sure if Focus is useful for anything now (since resting gives you double Power Regen).
Pierce: Mostly used when I could kill at least one of the two targets. Nifty, but a little expensive if you don’t have Power Regeneration. A little more useful for the Lethality Build because you get two chances to insta-kill.
Hunter’s Prowess: Extremely nice for Lethality Build. With enough stacked Lethality, you can get a reasonably reliable insta-kill chance.
Hail of Arrows: This was great with high Lethality. Two chances to insta-kill each creature on the floor! The effectiveness was increased with extra Accuracy.
Pin: Great for both builds. Shuts down a creature, and you can do it indefinitely with Power Regen.
(Didn’t really use much else for this class.)
Rogue:
I used these for raw damage. The Poisoncraft passive was really nice, and it even benefits from high-attack builds.
Development:
-All stat points into Dexterity. For equipment, the primary consideration is increasing damage (whatever has the highest combination of +Dex/Str). Secondary is Power Regen. Tertiary is Survivability.
Skills:
Coup de Grace: Never used it. My rogues hit hard enough that this wasn’t really ever necessary.
Thief’s Luck: Never used it. Could be valuable for countering Web’s accuracy debuff, or for helping Ranger’s Hail of Arrows hit.
Cripple: Never use it anymore. It was okay for a while, but I quickly outgrew the need for slowing down an enemy since my party tended to be high Quickness (even the Warrior and Cleric!).
Flash Powder: Never use it anymore. 50% chance is gimmicky. I only used it to kill the accuracy of creatures like Trolls.
Sap Strength: I still keep this on one of my Rogues. It’s good for shutting down a boss with nasty skills/spells. Also completely shuts down Beholders. They’re forced to repeatedly Channel.
Create Opening: I keep this on the other Rogue. It’s useful for killing things with HP that just barely exceeds your Sneak Attack damage.
Sneak Attack: Extremely useful. Probably the skill I use the most with my Rogues.
Hide: Great for *really* laying out the damage the following turn. Also excellent for defense. If you have at least 20 Power Regen, then you can Hide indefinitely. If you have any HP regen, then you can take down enemy parties by yourself (not on purpose. Usually this occurs because everything went to shit and you’re the last one left alive). If you have at least 21 Power Regen, then you can even stay at full stats while you pick off the enemies. This isn’t the ideal way to fight. It’s more of your last-ditch plan to win a fight that didn’t go well.
Pierce Defenses: Extremely useful. Probably the skill I used second-most.
Poison: Didn’t really use this until I had Poisoncraft. It piled on Poison damage so ridiculously fast.
Poisoncraft: Amazing. It basically increases your damage on every hit, and it doesn’t take up a slot.
Elusiveness: Occasionally good. Sometimes I’d rather have the enemy’s damage spread out among the party, though. Forcing that much fire onto the Rogue’s allies started to get the rest of the party killed.
Warrior:
I used the Warrior as a one-hit-killer. My Warrior was always fast enough to reach anywhere from 60-90 quickness, and she had enough Power Regen to Execute at 100% every other turn.
Development:
All stat points into Strength. Equipment stat priority is Power Regeneration first. Second is Strength. Third is survivability. Quickness came with the equipment (often with the Power Regen, such as a parrying dagger with +4 Power Regen and +10 Quickness).
Skills:
Cleave: Never used it. It just doesn’t seem useful enough to select over one of the other skills.
Resolve: Never used it. It just doesn’t seem useful enough to select over one of the other skills. Kinda inefficient for healing, anyway.
Shield Wall: Never used it. This definitely could be great, but I never used it because my Warrior doesn’t carry a shield. The high cost of this skill means you would probably have to stack Power Regen to be able to use this with considerable frequency.
Adrenaline: Never used it. I preferred Inspire, since the benefit to the Rogues was far greater than a +10% benefit to just the Warrior. Stun was rarely a problem anyway.
Overwhelm: Never used it. The cost is so ridiculously high on this skill. This would only be useful on something that cannot be Executed, anyway.
Inspire: Excellent skill. It costs nearly nothing to cast, and the benefit is amazing. Of course, this was extra-useful to me because I had two Rogues, but I’m sure most parties can make good use of this skill.
Execute: A wonderful insta-kill. Stacking Power Regen on your Warrior lets you pull these off at 100% quite often (every other turn, once you get towards endgame). Recommended that you use an accuracy boosting item with it, because it really sucks to fire off a 100% Execute, and then miss because of your 95% intrinsic accuracy. This is probably the Warrior skill that I use the most.
Bloodlust: An amazing complement to Execute. Usually a Rogue will leave something with low enough HP that you can Bloodlust it and gain a nice power boost. Having a high Strength helps this skill remain able to kill targets. This is the skill I learn right after Execute, and it is probably my second-most used skill.
Power Attack: I always keep this in my Warrior’s skillset. Sometimes you just need that extra damage to kill a creature, but you’d rather not waste an Execute on it.
Defiance: My Warriors always have at least 30 Power Regen by midgame, and this skill is unmatched for tanking (just don’t get stunned or no-power-regen’d). It is excellent for bosses, and it is useful when the Rogues start to get so Elusive that the heat is primarily on the Warrior.
Cleric:
The party healer, obviously. When healing is not required, I use the Cleric to either snipe with Smite, or Anoint a Rogue. My Cleric stacks Power Regen to be able to frequently fling out high-cost spells.
Development:
All stat points into Intelligence. Equipment stat priority is Power Regeneration first, Intelligence second, and survivability third.
Skills:
Heal, Heal All, and Revive: These are amazing just as they are, and they’re pretty much indispensable.
Purify, Shield of Faith, and Fervor: Never used them. Shield of Faith is far too situational to be worth a slot, and it is expensive (55 Power, and no Power Regen next turn! Ouch.). Fervor is a little like….”lolwhy?” It’s expensive and kinda weak. Seems more like a skill for desperate times. Purify just plain doesn’t seem worthwhile. I’d much prefer the healing spells over this.
Litany of Pain: A little too weak to be worth a slot. This wasn’t meant to be dealing heavy damage anyway, so it’s not a big deal. I never bother using it.
Holy Light: I never use this anymore. I used to take this for the 30% accuracy debuff to all enemies, but after a while, it just wasn’t a significant debuff anymore. I’d rather Anoint a party member and have something outright dead.
Anoint: One of the two skills my Cleric uses when no healing is necessary. It’s usually enough to make a Rogue’s next hit a one-hit-kill.
Smite: The other skill my Cleric uses when no healing is necessary. It usually hits hard enough to finish off injured creatures. The stun effect is a nice bonus, but not something that I rely upon.
about 1 year ago
Something I just thought of about critical hits, they should any one of the ailments you can afflict. Say you have Blind 10% and Lethality 10% and Critical hit 10% but no others. You get a critical hit and since you have two possible effects it’s a 50/50 chance for one to be doubled. If it’s Blind the effect goes to 20%, if lethality the chance is 20% for that hit plus doubled damage.
I hope this gets ingame.
about 1 year ago
Warrior:
Best skills —
Shield Wall
Cleave
Pretty much all you need this guy for is to take damage since his damage output and speed are much lower then your other characters. Overwhelm is inte
Summoner:
Played for a few levels and found it very weak and uninteresting so I cant comment on the skills much
Mage:
Best Skills–
Electrical Storm. Best spell mage has by far, and what you’ll be casting 90% of the time
Freeze– good for dps on a single target and the stun chance is just gravy really
Cosmic Prison– allows you to take one opponent out of the action indefinitely, which can be very useful in some battles (for example to prevent cult members from summoning)
So-so Skills
Fireball– Basically inferior to electrical storm in almost every way, but you start out with it and it does higher damage on the one target I guess
Arcane Armor– In long fights this can be helpful to keep your mage from dieing
Invisibility– I’ve never found myself using it, but I can see how it would be useful situationally
Bad skills:
Ensorcelled blade– You dont want your mage in melee range. Period.
Power Siphon– Unecessary because of mana regeneration that you should be getting from your gear. And it isnt nearly effective enough against enemies to justify as an offensive skill
Incinerate– See Ensorcelled Blade
Flickering Flames– Monsters have way more hp then you do at high levels, so the damage this deals is worthless. Plus why would you want to cast a marginal status effect spell when you could be raining down magical fury? Easily the worst spell for the mage and one of the worst skills in the game
Barbarian
Best Skills:
Whirlwind– One of the best DPS skills in the game despite its high power cost. A staple of the class
Charge– Great for killing undefended casters in the back row. The stun chance is very nice too, one of the best skills in the class.
Ok Skills:
Pulverize/Dismember —
Great skills in longer fights against bosses and tough individual creatures. But for most mob fights you’ll want to stick to the higher dps whirlwind and charge.
Boast– Only useful situationally, but sometimes you need to hit something in the back row when there are monsters still in front. This skill essentially lets the barbarian take a ranged attack, the other stuff is meainingless
Jostle– I’ve never found myself using this because even if your barbarian gets shifted to the back row by the minotaur, he can still use boast. But I guess it might be situationally useful for some people, and it only costs 10
Bad Skills:
Reckless Fury–
Its too easy to die on the harder difficulties, and the barbarian does enough damage without using this. Plus most battles only last 2-4 turns, so this is a huge waste of time (as are most of the buffing skills in this game)
Enrage– If this were a passive it would be great, but its simply not worth spending a turn casting it when you could be doing damage instead
Intimidate– This is a mostly useless skill to start with, but the fact that it costs SEVENTY power easily makes it the worst skill of the Barbarian.
Last Stand– If your Barbarian is below 20% health usually you are doing something wrong. On hard difficulties and advanced levels, most monsters will kill you in 2-3 hits, so you wont get much of a chance to use this one
Ranger
Good Skills:
Hail of Arrows– The accuracy penalty really sucks, but this is still the rangers best damage skill against large crowds. I havent tested the numbers, but I suspect that with the appropriate accuracy bonuses this might out dps Electrical Storm and Whirlwind. High power cost is also a bit of a problem, but despite its flaws its the best opener for the ranger.
Pin– Attack that does damage, AND has 100% stun chance? Good stuff! This is basically a much much better cosmic prison
Pierce– Basically when you do not have enough power for Hail of Arrows or their are only 2 monsters left, this is your go-to skill
Ok Skills:
Hunters Prowess– Great against deep creatures if their arent enough for a Hail of Arrows or you are out of power. But against everything else it is worthless
Natures Balm– Essential in fights against the medusa, and in longer fights it is a nice skill to have. But the healing isnt significant enough to waste a turn on unless you are getting heavily poisoned
Envenomed Arrow– I think the ranger has better skills, but this one has its uses as well
Bad Skills:
Force of Nature– I’m not sure why you felt the need to put one skill that completely contradicts a classes intent in each tree. If you want a melee character there are MUCH better choices then a ranger, so there is no reason to ever, ever, ever have him equipped with a melee weapon.
Healing Lore– The healing is completely insignificant because rangers are not going to get any points in intellect The ability to cure poison might be ok, if it werent for the fact that natures balm cures poison FOR THE ENTIRE FIGHT. Basically this is a gimped version of another skill the ranger already has.
Focus– 25 power is an insignificant amount, especially in the late game when you should have plenty of regeneration (and battles are only a few turns). This is probably the most worthless skill the ranger has
Swiftness– Quickness does not really scale with levels like the other attributes– monsters get more hp and so on but their quickness stays the same, and the quickness boosts on items you get continue to increase for a while. This means that by the time you have beaten the main quest once or twice you should have no problems out-quicking monsters except on your warrior, which makes this skill irrellevent. However at low levels it can be nice
about 1 year ago
Warrior:
Power Attack- Very useful
Bloodlust- Very useful
Cleave- Very useful
Resolve- Occasionally useful
Overwhelm- Useful if outfitted with speed items, but mana cost is high.
Execute- Never used
Adrenaline- Never used, maybe play style
Shield Wall- Never used
Inspire- Never used, always felt better dishing out damage.
Cleric:
Heal: Very useful
Heal All: Very useful
Smite: Very useful
Fervor: Very useful
Holy light: Useful
Purify: Useful
Litany of Pain: Useful
Revive: could be useful but the revived character usually dies just after being revived.
Shield of Faith: Never found a use for it.
Anoint: Could be useful but as a plate armour class I always kept my cleric in front. If there was a sub class that could only use cloth, Anoint would become useful.
Ranger
Pierce- Very useful
Envenomed Arrow- Very useful
Pin- Very useful
Hail of arrows- Very useful
Healing lore- Occasionally useful
Nature’s balm- Occasionally useful
Swiftness- Never used, could be play style
Hunters Prowess- Very useful for creatures
Force of Nature- Never use as my ranger always has a bow.
Mage
Fireball- Very useful
Electrical Storm- Very useful
Cosmic prison- Very useful
Freeze: Sometimes useful for that extra edge, stun seems more rare than 25%
Ensorcelled Blade- Never use as my mage always has a staff
Incinerate- Never use as mage is always in back
Arcane armour- Never use, mage always in back
Power Siphon- Generally don’t use, would be more useful if you could target a specific monster.
Flickering flames- Never use
Invisibility- Never use
Maybe I should try the mage in front… just doesn’t seem intuitive.
Suggestions:
Warrior: Charge- 25% damage to 1 in front row to cause 100% damage to 1 in back row, uses 60 power.
Cleric: Give the Revive spell a little more HP.
Mage: Charm- 75% chance to cause a monster to attack one of their own 1 turn.
Negate magic- 50% (or maybe slighty less) chance to negate all magic for 1 turn.
Cleric- Second class (Priest) that has slightly better healing abilities, but must wear cloth. Might make those censors useful. AND OR, another healer class option so the Cleric didn’t seem so necessary.
about 1 year ago
I somewhat surprised many folks don’t seem to like Execute much. For me it was my fav skills. Especially if you have two warriors in a party; being able to execute two monsters in the first round is huge.
I think it is sort of a shows how flexible, deep and good Monster’s Den is that it many of us have found pretty different ways of playing it.
about 1 year ago
Well, i don’t have experience with all skills yet, so i just list my favorites:
Ensorcelled Blade (Mage)
The best way to instantly remove those annoying Crossbowmen, i allways rely on a Warrior with damage reduction above 80%, therefore everything that ignores armor has to be killed first. You don’t even need to waste statpoints on strength. I use them for Endurance with every character. Make sure you use unerring swords or ocsbane and whatever gloves of accuracy. Bone Ring and minotaur horns work well too.
Execute (Warrior)
This one is great, if yo have high lethality and high power regeneration. Ring of boundless Energy is a must too. Too bad it doesn’t use the power better though, for example, if you have 60% lethality (i really got that high), it shouldn’t use more than 40 power for this move.
Adrenaline and Natures Balm. (Warrior and Ranger)
This ones let you win against Gorgon and Minotaur almost by default, because they can’t beat the Warrior anymore, if he has high has high defense and immunity against poison and stun. If the damage reduction isn’t high enough yet, use some vampiric effects and make sure, that the warrior also has Resolve.
The rest of the party will die though, so let them escape, if you care about the score. (character deaths reduce your rating, escapes do not)
Defiance (Warrior)
Makes the Warrior almost invincible, if you have 30+ power regeneration. Very cool, if you fight against three Wraiths, hehehe.
Hail of Arrows (Ranger)
Not such a great move, since i play with only one Ranger, but still nice, if i couldn’t find unerring swords for a long time, and my mages can’t instantly kill back row characters anymore.
Shield Wall (Warrior)
This one is used best with two warriors, because you need only 20 power regeneration for a permanent shield wall, if one shields, while the other one passes. 30 are better though, because the not shielding warrior can also attack.
I always use two warriors in survival mode (got to wave 176), but since i need two mages and a ranger in normal mode, i’m stuck with only one warrior.
Armor Proficiency (Warrior)
A very great skill to keep your defence above 80%
Poisoncraft (Rogue)
A nice skill, when your Rogue does high damage, but i don’t use Rogues anymore, due to the lack of area attacks.
Elusiveness (Rogue)
Too bad this one can’t be raised to 100%, it would make you invincible, along with Defiance. Only moves that stop your power regeneration could break this. But it’s still a very good defense, just make sure your warrior can escape instantly, when the rogue is killed.
Intimidate (Barbarian)
I don’t know, how this works, i was too lazy to play with a barbarian yet, but in case this was a 100% Elusiveness stuff, it could be insanely useful for the survival mode.
about 1 year ago
I didn’t play monster’s den a long time. In my opinion there are lots skills useful but depends on what play style a player wants.
For example, I like speed run in endless dungeon, so any skill that isn’t god-like-one-hit-kill-whole-group-enemy-in-one-turn I don’t use it because it is useless. And what present it will be electrical storm and hide+sneak attack. Some prefer hail of arrows.
In the mean time I also like survival mode, and that becomes totally different situation which if any skill doesn’t help me survive longer I won’t use it. This means all three skills above is abandoned and replaced by defensive skills.
For example, revive is a must, call soul is excellent, defiance is uber useful. Which none of these are practical in the dungeon mode.
So, as you said you want to know what skill is useful and what is not, it will depend on what mode. The more different goals your game have the more different skills will be useful.
I know this seems vague, but this is what I know so far. there is no really bad skill but only wrong skill in wrong situation.
about 1 year ago
BTW.
Sometimes I want to remove basic attack because I have more than 5 unique skills, which means 6 to use. Since I can’t remove that everyone’s skill, I am forced to choose normal attack in my skill list. I don’t see the reason why this skill is always sitting there.
about 1 year ago
A little late on this I guess, but I couldn’t resist putting my opinions in on this.
Warrior: In a dungeon crawl these make for a great shield wall, but other than that, I don’t really like the class. I find clerics make for a better damage absorber, and barbarians make a better front line attack. It’s not one I use as a general rule, but here are my opinions on the attacks anyway.
Power attack – The attack boost is not worth the cost of power. I think I’ve used this attack all of once. 1/10
Defiance – While this attack is annoying when an enemy uses it, because I don’t like to have to sit around waiting to be able to attack them, it’s never one that actually seems to have any effect on the battle to me. If I had this skill on a mage, or a barbarian, I might like it, as a way to avoid losing them early in a fight when they’re already beaten up. But on a warrior? with so much armour, by the time they’re that badly injured, the rest of the party is already dead. It just wastes a turn. 1/10
Cleave – As warrior skills go, this one isn’t too bad. I’m gonna be honest, I like area attacks. Trouble is, barbarians have whirlwind. An equivalent attack which is better, and costs less, as I recall. It makes this skill kinda redundant. 5/10
Adrenaline – I guess it’s a nice little attack for long boss battles, legendary monsters, or FoT (Fall of Tellonous), but for general purpose combat, I don’t use it. There’s very little that stuns you anyway, and battles are too short to use it regularly. Plus, you can only use it on your warrior, which instantly makes the damage bonus pretty pointless. 5/10
Resolve – I don’t think I’ve ever used it. I’m old school, I believe a party needs a cleric to function properly anyway, so it’s just useless to me. 0/10
Shield wall – Probably the best attack a warrior has. The only problem being the high power cost. If I could guarantee on being able to use it for, say, five rounds running, I’m sure I’d love it. But at best you can use it twice, then your warrior has to rest. Plus, it’s rubbish against so many enemies, who have area attacks. 6/10
Inspire – If I’m using a warrior in a FoT match, I like this attack, but otherwise, rounds don’t last long enough for it to be useful. Simple as. 5/10
Execute – I try and avoid using potions as much as possible, so I find this to be useless. If it worked against bosses or legendary creatures, I would love it, but their insta-kill immunity makes this basically a pointless attack for me. 1/10
Bloodlust – This is a must have for warriors. Like I said, I like to save my potions, so being able to regenerate a little extra power near the end of battles is useful for me. The only problem being that I maybe use this attack twice in a battle against six opponents, if I’m lucky. A lot of the time, I don’t get to use it at all. 6/10
Overwhelm – I don’t really think much of it. I mean, if you have a rogue in the party, using this after a legendary monster has been crippled can be useful. But the power cost means you only really get to use it once anyway. Even in a boss fight, I don’t really feel it has any use. It’s a skill for one specific instance. 3/10
Leadership – At high levels this rivals shield wall as a warriors most useful skill, but the probability is too low to be any use until eleven levels of upgrading, minimum. 6/10
Armour proficiency – A must have skill for warriors. It becomes useful at around level five, which is unusual for passive skills. 8/10
Cleric: I mentioned already, but clerics are essential to any party. I think what I like about them most is that they can be diverse. On the one hand, you can make a great shield wall with them, while alternatively you can dress them in light armour with high speed and power, stick them to the back rows and have a great ranged unit. Oh, also, they heal? Pretty neat. I’ve played games with groups made up of only clerics, and had no problems, other than the lack of diversity with weapons they experience.
Heal – Useful starting ability, and later when you have a good level of benediction it’s good in long battles. Really useful in FoT for removing curses and damage reduction, but only with reasonable levels of benediction. Sometimes it can still be quicker to kill a team member, then revive them instead though. I think it’s the only attack where I find it useful at the beginning and end of the game, but kinda rubbish in the middle. 7/10
Smite – Great attack for a backrow cleric, especially against undead. But useless for the more common front line cleric. I have mixed feelings about it, I suppose. 5/10
Holy light – Must have against the undead, and always useful against larger groups. When fighting legendary monsters, if there’s no rogue in the party, this can be useful as a starting move for a cleric too. In smaller battles it’s dead weight, I suppose. Also, it bugs me when I have an attack I use once in a battle taking up an inventory space. 8/10
Heal all – I think this is probably my favourite cleric ability. The only thing that bothers me about it is that you can’t get benediction with it. But apart from that, I can’t fault it. 9/10
Anoint – I don’t really use this one much. I mean, I can see how it could be useful, it’s just not for me. If I have a back row cleric that’s faster than a mage I have, it’s makes lightning storm a first turn killer, but other than that, it’s not great. 5/10
Revive – I don’t really have a habit of losing team members. On the rare occasions I do, I have more than enough revive potions to bring them back. In the really late game Legendary Monster battles, I’ll occasionally equip this attack just as a safeguard, and I consider it an essential for FoT (I always have at least two characters that can undo death in my party for that mode), but as a general rule, if you’re letting your team members die during battle and can’t wait until after the battle to bring them back, you’re really doing something wrong.
Litany of pain – Great on a back row cleric, but useless on the front row. I mean, it’s a good area attack, but you want your area attacks landed straight away to soften up the enemy, before you pick them off. With a heavily armoured cleric, by the time it reaches their turn either half your opponents are dead, or your guys need some serious healing. It bugs me a little that it doesn’t get wrath, and that it has no bonus damage to undead, too. 5/10
Purify – I just have no use for this attack. I mean, if I’m healing poison I just use heal or heal all. And if you’re getting enough party members cursed for this to be better than benediction, for gods’ sake, get a mage. 1/10
Shield of faith – I’ve only ever used this on clerics with really low intelligence and really high endurance, and even then only when there was another cleric in the party. Usually, it just makes more sense to heal yourself. 1/10
Fervour – I can take it or leave it. Sure, sometimes it’s nice to deal a little extra damage from the front rows. Kinda pricey though. Maybe if it did extra damage to undead I’d like it more. 4/10
Wrath – Great for a back row cleric, but it’s pretty much useless for the first ten levels. 7/10
Benediction – A must have for FoT, and for any longer battles. If you’re using it in shorter battles though, seriously think about restructuring your party. 8/10
Mage: I almost always have a mage in the party. Generally, with pretty awesome power regeneration. One of my favourite units.
Freeze – I don’t use this much at the beginning of the game, but later it can be useful once you have enough power regeneration to make it effectively free. Also, it’s good once you work your stun up a little. It’s a generally good attack. 7/10
Fireball – The main advantage of this attack is that, for an area attack, it’s cheap. The main disadvantage is that nine times out of then, I can’t use it to its’ full potential without frying my own guys. It has its’ place, I guess, and it makes a good starting ability. 6/10
Electrical storm – I noticed I’m not the only person that likes this one. Let’s face it, it’s the most powerful attack in the game, when used right. But at the same time, it’s one you need to be tactical with. There’s been many a time when I’ve been up against a party of four, and I’ve spent ten minutes debating whether I wanted to open with that attack and have to refill my stamina somehow, or save my stamina at the risk of taking heavier damage. I think the fact that I can say that about the best attack in the game really shows that nothing is overpowered. 9/10
Cosmic Prison – I can see why people might like this, but it’s not for me. Why would I want to armour my opponents? That’s crazy talk. 0/10
Invisibility – Again, I can see how this could be useful, but it’s not for me. I tend to take care of my mages too much to need it. 0/10
Arcane Armour – In long battles, and in FoT, this is great. For general use, not so much. If I have a conjurer in the party, I don’t use it. Mostly I just get this late in the game. 4/10
Flickering Flames – I don’t use this in a dungeon crawl. Ever. I do in FoT though. It just gives that extra kick. Especially against wraiths. Although I generally take them out with a blast of magic before that becomes a problem. Still, it’s saved my ass on more than one occasion. Damage reflect works best on gargoyles, but I never get to use this against them because they’re not in FoT, and in dungeon crawls it would use up four turns to guarantee them attacking someone with it on, by which point the battle’s basically over anyway. 5/10
Ensorcelled blade – Very occasionally, I’ll start a new game with an unusual selection of characters just for shits and giggles. When I do, generally one of the things I do is arm a mage with a sword and give them this attack. These games usually last until around the third floor, when I get bored with how useless a mage is with a sword. I’m sorry, in theory it could be really good, but in practice, this attack takes too much power. If it was cheap, it would make a front line mage a really fun thing, but let’s face it, it’s nothing other than a risky damage multiplier. 0/10
Incinerate – Yeah, see, now, I like the whole cheap double damage thing, but if I’m putting my mage on the front line, I want to see something a bit more interesting than this. Give it a 50% lethality or some interesting effect, and we’ll talk. 0/10
Power siphon – I can get why this may be less popular, but I love it. But then again, I like it because of my playing style; Once I’ve only a single opponent left, I use power siphon to keep their attacks weak while healing and/or resting my team mates, so I don’t have to worry about low levels in the next fight. Also, when you’re faced with multiple neophites, it’s a good way of stopping them from summoning (they require 100% energy to summon). Its’ only problem is the cost. If you have enough power to use it, you don’t need it, except to keep your opponents’ power low. 9/10
Spell mastery – I love this skill, but it hates me. It only ever kicks in when I use low cost attacks, or right at the end of a battle, right before I use a healing spot. It’s going to get my recommendation, but could we make it a little less of a jerk next time? 9/10
Shielding – I like not taking damage and all, but with my mages, I find my biggest problem is keeping their energy levels up, so I generally don’t get this ’till really late in the game. 4/10
Ranger: I have really mixed feelings about rangers. On the one hand, they have some attacks I love, on the other hand, they have some attacks which I’ve never used.
Pierce – It’s a great attack to start out with, but it quickly becomes redundant. The main problem is that it really relies on your enemies lining up, which doesn’t happen much in small groups, and in larger groups I prefer hail of arrows. 4/10
Natures balm – Great for use in FoT and boss battles, but other than that, I don’t really use it. If you want to go really far in FoT, the best thing you can do is get a ranger, put all your points into intelligence, and give everyone a blast of that right from the beginning. It’s more important than bringing people back from the dead. 5/10
Healing Lore – Remember I mentioned making a party of unusually positioned characters? Yeah, I use a ranger as a front row healer. Yeah, they aren’t very good. The healing effect is just too weak. It’s useful to have a spare healer in the later game just in case, but I really don’t use it much. 2/10
Hunters’ prowess – Against creatures of the deep, this is a great attack. If you’ve got bonuses to lethality, it’s also pretty good. Nine times out of ten? I don’t use it. It’s better than most attacks that are essentially low damage enhancement, but none of them are awfully good. 4/10
Hail of arrows – Essential against large groups, or in FoT for rangers. As area attacks go though? It’s not great. It costs as much as electrical storm, and basically has a 66.5% accuracy. It does have the advantage of effectively guaranteeing to do some damage to everyone (there’s an 11.2225% chance of missing both shots on a target, if my math is right), but I don’t recall there ever being a time when that was a useful trait. 8/10
Pin – Ranged attack, with 100% chance to stun and does damage? Love it. On the other hand, you’re better of equipping a rogue with a ranged weapon and having them use cripple. It does more damage, and reduces your opponents speed to zero. Still, pin is a pretty damned good attack, if slightly overpriced (I would drop the cost back to 35 power, personally). 8/10
Force of nature – As with healing lore, this is good if you want to make an unusual party for shits and giggles, but otherwise, it’s pretty useless. Seeing as there’s four ranger skills that require a ranged weapon, all of which are reasonably good attacks, and only the one that requires a melee weapon, it’s not really worth it. Although if you could change between weapons mid battle, it may become useful against a minotaur. As is though, it’s only really useful against opponents with obscenely high armour; Gargoyles and wraiths, and nothing else as I recall. 3/10
Envenomed Arrow – It’s an okay attack if you have a ranger anyway, but when compared to the rogues’ poison attack it seems kinda useless. I mean, it costs more power, and can only be used with ranged weapons. Plus, rogues get the additional passive poisoning ability. 7/10
Focus – I don’t really use this, on accounts of how I try and rest up at the end of each battle, so I always have full power bars at the beginning of the next fight anyway. I can see how it could be useful if you have low power regeneration and are in a long battle, I just don’t let myself get into a position where that’s a problem. 2/10
Swiftness – I just have no use for this. Speed is really useful on the first round of a fight, but after that becomes unimportant in my eyes. It’s little use in FoT too, as battles are just as likely to start with people with middling or low speed, due to its’ run on nature. If speed also had an effect on how often you were to attack, this would make it an attack worth using. But as a general rule, I don’t want to waste an attack making me attack sooner. 1/10
Creature Lore – I adore this attack. It’s the one thing that makes hail of arrows really worth it, you can take an opponent of six and instantly make them all as weak as kittens, once you have this cranked right up. I always forget that it works, and it’s always a lovely surprise when I see the words flash across the screen. 9/10
Vitality – Until it’s really high it’s not much use, but once you’ve got it up it really makes those more difficult dungeons feel a lot safer. 7/10
Rogue: I’m not sure why I like the rogue so much, but I rarely make a party without one. Which is unusual, because apart from that, I tend far more towards characters with area attacks. I guess it’s just nice to know that, while you have people softening up the enemy, you’ve also got someone that can finish them off quickly.
Poison – It’s cheap, and effectively doubles the effect of your attack. And with longer battles, it just keeps going. The only real problem I have with it, apart from the obvious annoyance that it isn’t an area attack, is that being poison instead of a simple improved attack is that I can attack someone on the front row, poison them to death, but still not be able to attack someone on the back row until they take a turn. Which, is the way it should work, and one of those limitations that makes the game challenging. It just drives me crazy. 8/10
Pierce defenses – It’s useful against bosses and gargoyles because of the armour piercing, but for general purpose I don’t really use it. You get a better result from poisoning, even on enemies with fairly high poison resistance. It’s a good, cheap attack for use against long bosses with heavy armour though. 8/10
Sneak attack – Same problem as before with these simple damage multipliers, the damage doesn’t justify the power usage. 0/10
Flash powder – I’ve never got such a good blinding effect off anything else, so i tend to use this going up against legendary monsters and any bosses with really good accuracy. The lack of damage done is enough to put me off using it for general purpose though, although if I’m fighting greenskins, I’ll often equip it just to make doubley sure I can heal up during the end fight. Greenskins have terrible accuracy, especially savages. This reduces their accuracy to 15%, which makes me feel pretty safe. 7/10
Create opening – This is basically a damage multiplier, with a lower chance of hitting. If you compare it to poison, even without increasing your intelligence, poison with do the same damage as your weapon again from poison after a couple of levels, so you get a 95% chance of scoring that damage. This does, in effect, around 175% of the damage of a regular attack (obviously this assumes your allies attacks average the same as yours, although actually rogues have a pretty high attack when they use a dagger), with a 90.25% chance of hitting. Plus another 4.75% chance to do regular damage. So basically, it’s gonna do less damage, and cost more power. You are hedging your bets on your other characters doing more regular attack damage than you can manage. Which, for a character who relies on simple attacks like that, is not what you want to be doing.1/10
Hide – I suppose it is logically speaking a useful attack, but I’ve just never really got into it. I suppose I just prefer to spread the damage between my characters and not show favouritism. 7/10
sap strength – I like this against legendary monsters, and it comes in handy against cultists sometimes, but it’s not one of my favourites. It just costs too much. 6/10
Thiefs’ luck – Any fight which is gonna last a long time, this is a must have. FoT is much less frustrating if you have this, too. Usually though, it’s quicker just to go straight for it. 5/10
Coup de grace – I like the idea of this attack, but I’ve honestly never had a chance to use it. Maybe if I focused more on getting stunning attacks or something. But whatever. 0/10
Cripple – Essential for rogues. Slows, stuns, and does damage too. Plus, it’s cheap. Always a good sign. Especially good on a rogue, seeing as they generally go first out of everything, it gives you the chance to remove a really dangerous opponent before they have a chance to attack. 9/10
Poisoncraft – Love it. It seems useful at whatever level, whether it’s just pushing that damage up just enough to kill off that greebler you can’t quite kill in one hit, or tearing holes in a legendary creature at higher levels. 9/10
Elusiveness – See hide. 0/10
Barbarian: I find barbarians to be the best balanced unit. Strong attacks (the strongest, in a lot of instances), reasonable area attacks, reasonable speed, medium armour, they’re really useful.
Reckless fury – This attack is basically useless. The drop in armour is far too great, unless you’re using armour enhancing skills or potions. It’s certainly not worth losing a turn to set up. 1/10
Charge – One of the few attacks that makes where you position your characters truly important, but one of my favourites. It just bugs me that it has the stunning effect, it always ends up completely wasted; I use the attack like an execution most of the time. 9/10
Dismember – Great against Legendary Monsters with really high attacks, but otherwise I don’t really care for it. I don’t even use it. I prefer pulverise. 6/10
Pulverise – I like this attack against legendary monsters, and as a slightly better regula attack, but it costs too much. 7/10
Jostle – I can see why it would be useful, but for it to be useful you’d really need an extra turn immediately afterwards. 1/10
Boast – Love boast. It’s effectively a cheap ranged attack. the speed reduction can be a nice sweetener too. 9/10
Whirlwind – Without a doubt, my favourite thing about barbarians. It’s a decent area attack, although it does always strike me as odd that it costs more than electrical storm, despite hitting less targets and doing less damage to some. I figured this was to make up for the fact that, as a barbarians attack is bound to be higher due to the use of the greataxe, it would therefore do more damage and thus cost more. I guess this is true. When I use electrical storm, it weakens everyone up, but when I use whirlwind it always kills at least two enemies. Still, it’s pretty pricey (the only attacks that cost more are revive, summon soul and execute). 9/10
Enrage – I guess this makes up for the large cost of the barbarians attacks, but I’m not a fan. You’re better off flooding your opponents with weak regular attacks until you’ve built up enough power again. 1/10
Intimidate – Like I said before, I don’t like to show favouritism. Besides, it seems rather contradictory, considering that other abilities the barbarian has rely on it taking damage. 0/10
Last stand – While I think this would be a great attack for a roleplay, I’ve never been in a position where this seemed useful. Usually, if I’ve reached that low health, I am first of all running low on power, and second of all fighting something with insta-kill immunity. Which basically makes this an expensive damage multiplier. 1/10
Brutality – It’s basically just a passive damage multiplier that requires a whole lot of upgrading to be any use. I mean, you have to wait twenty-five levels for it to give you what is effectively an extra 25% damage to each attack. Sure, you kind of expect it to be fairly low from a passive enhancement, but that seems like a lot to me. Still, it comes in handy a lot in later levels. 7/10
Vengeance – Like brutality, only I personally find it to be more powerful. I mean, they only really kick in against really tough enemies, in which case, chances are I’m taking damage every turn, often more than once. Which means at its’ worst, I’m effectively gaining an extra 22.5% damage on average, but I’m usually exceeding that due to the extra chance of getting vengeance from the extra attacks. 8/10
Conjurer: So I’m gonna be honest. In a dungeon crawl, conjurers are useless. On the otherhand, FoT, they are incredible. The main problem they face in a dungeon crawl is that summonings don’t last longer than one battle. As such, while they’re useful when pitted against a really powerful enemy, most of the time they’re just dead weight. FoT though, your summonings last forever, making a conjurer unexpendable.
Dire wolf – They’re over-priced, and truly, truly useless. They seem to be particularly vulnerable to poison from my experience, meaning that the minute you come up against a shaman, lich, or similar spell caster, they’re instantly worthless. Also useless against deep creatures for the same reason. 1/10
Wall of shadows – If they were cheaper, I’d think they were great. Nothing better than being able to curse your enemies, remove curses, and draw fire from your valued soldiers at the same time. I wouldn’t use them unless the price was severely dropped though. I’m thinking somewhere in the region of 10 power each. 2/10
Manasprite/bloodsprite – In theory they’re great, but I just don’t see it being useful unless there’s more than six spaces. In a small fight, they’re effectively a one shot wonder, and in a large one, they just take too long to ‘reload’ to be any use singularly. I mean, I suppose I could kill them after each use, but that just seems like I’m wasting a unit I could be using for attacking (my conjurer, duh). 1/10
Wargolem – This is the only summoning I actually consider useful. They actually have enough health to last a few turns on their own, and their attack is usable. I don’t use their other ability, ever. It seems like a waist to me, when I could be using them as an expendable form of attack. Beef them up a bit with Eldritch Aegis and a rangers’ natures’ balm, and you have a fairly self-sufficient little soldier right there. 5/10
Vortex – The trouble with vortex is that it doesn’t do nearly enough damage. It’s little better than a regular attack.
…
Actually, that’s not the only trouble with it.
The displacement it causes is almost pointless. Sure, it can spare one of your more injured members some damage on occasion, but its’ most obvious use, knocking front row soldiers to the back rows, thus forcing them to cease attacking, doesn’t work. I’ve never come across a single enemy that worked on, much to my utter disgust. Further more, it then stops me from attacking them with melee weapons, because there’s a vortex in front of them. With a name like vortex, I was expecting an attack that would cost all my power, and probably some of my life, but would rip shreads out of multiple enemies. Or an attack similar to last stand, that could only be used at low health, but would give you an insta-kill on all the enemies infront of you (with the obvious exception of those with insta-kill immunity). In actual fact, it’s just a really small damage multiplier against crowded enemies, and a liability when used wrong. This was the only part of the game that I felt truly disappointed with (apart from the fact that the campaigns weren’t longer. But I would have felt that way if they went on for a hundred levels). 0/10
Banish – A must have against cultists. Having an inexpensive way to instantly kill an enemy is amazing, no question. It just annoys me slightly that I have no use for it against anyone else. Infact, there’s only two units in the entire game that cause need for it. 8/10
Refresh energies – Nine times out of ten, once my conjurer has summoned some creatures, I don’t have a lot for him to spend his power on. Eldritch Aegis is kinda one of those things that you get once, and vortex is useless. Other than that, your skills are mostly summoning different creatures. Banish can only be used in specific and rare circumstances, as can be said for call soul. All that leaves is your regular attack. As such, I feel bad, leaving them with so much power. Unfortunately, there’s no way to transfer this power, which I would love to do with them, so I often end up making the clerics’ job easier and healing up the summonings simply so I’m not wasting the power I’m generating. The main benefit being, it removes curses. Without this skill, you’re better off banishing your own summonings, and re-summoning them straight after when they get cursed. It bugs me that this can’t be used on other allies though. As I said before, I would love for a way to give my allies extra power. 8/10
Eldritch Aegis – Of everything a conjurer has, this is probably the most useful in a dungeon crawl. Mainly, because I’m not a big fan of heavy armour, so a 15% boost right at the beginning makes a lot of difference to me. But really its’ best use, like with every other skill a conjurer has, is in FoT. Use it once, then you don’t have to use it again until someone dies. We’re talking a good fifty rounds there, no trouble, if you play well. I would probably think this was good enough to use in a dungeon crawl regularly, maybe enough to make a conjurer a regular member of my party, if we were looking at a larger armour buff. Really, I’m thinking in the area of 25% upwards to even consider it. 9/10
Call soul – Like with revive, if you’re using this in a regular dungeon crawl, you’re doing something wrong. In FoT though, it’s vital. Personally, I prefer it to revive, on the basis that, when I lose a character, it’s generally in the heat of battle. I want them back instantly, but with revive, the low health they have means you lose them again before you get a chance to heal them up. With call soul, sure, they’re stuck on regular attacks for a few turns, but after that, but at least they’re straight back into the Fight, right when I need them most. 7/10
Augment strength – No matter what I do, my summonings seem to have rubbish attacks. It has occurred to me that it’s possible their strength is linked to the summoners’ strength, but I don’t think the reason is particularly important. The point is, even with augmented strength, they’re weak as kittens. Kittens with leukemia. In a wet burlap sack. Which you drowned them in. After they were miscarried. Then dropped in a shreader. Then spread on toast and served to the vicar when he came round for tea last Sunday. Why would you even want to feed a holy man kittens, you sick, perverted person?
Sorry, I’m digressing. The point is, even with this whacked up full, Wargolems can’t fight their way out of a wet paper bag. Sure, if you’ve got some ability points you’re not using, this is as good a place to dump them as any. Just don’t go putting your hopes in it. 4/10
Augment health – Okay, so I like Wargolems, which probably suggests to you that I like a good expendable shield wall. Guess what! You’re right. And what could be more useful for a shield wall than a bunch of bonus health? Once you have Wargolems, banish, refresh energies, Eldritch Aegis and Call soul, this is what you want to start putting points in. 8/10
Okay, so that should give you an idea of what I think of each attack. Just as a last little bonus, I’ll give you the lineups I’ve found most successful, just so you can see how I’m using them, and get an idea of what kind of strategy each attack suits.
FoT lineup – I like this more than the dungeon crawl, because of its’ simplicity. It’s just pure fighting, no complex decisions about whether it’s better to have 10 poison or 10 regular damage or 10% stun or anything like that. As such, I’ve played it a lot, and think I have the lineup pretty well down to the ground. So, basically, this is how it goes:
One conjurer – Like I said, this is where they really shine, because they give you a full garrison, beef up your armour a bit, and they bring people back to life. With full health. Having banish on standby is quite useful, too. I arm them up with Wargolem, refresh energies, banish, Eldritch Aegis, call soul and as many levels of augment health as I can. Basically the strategy is to summon a couple of wargolems, then slap armour on everyone. After that, you can chill out, refresh some energies occasionally, replace war golems where you need to, call souls and re-summon occasionally, basically it’s a chilled out, simple shooting-fest for most of the battle. Nice simple class to work with.
One Ranger – The trick to FoT is to keep your health going up as much as possible. Well, one of them, anyway. Basically, my ranger gets equipped with Pierce, Natures’ Balm, Hail of Arrows and Pin. Then stick the rest in Creature Law. The technique is to slap Natures’ Balm on everyone, then rest up, using Hail of Arrows to weaken large groups, Pin to avoid damage from faster enemies, an Pierce where-ever you can, and rest in between. Focus on their intelligence, and you can get a really good heal going, which is really useful. Basically, they’re mostly there for the poison resistance. I feel a little bad for them sometimes.
One Cleric – Like I said, no group should be without one. Especially if you’re going to be fighting wave after wave of enemies without a break to heal up between. I equip them with Heal, Smite, Holy Light, Heal All, Revive, and the rest goes to Benediction. Use them to blind the opponent first, then heal up people as needed. With smite as a back up attack, just in case things get really ugly. Curses should be something to focus on removing, minor wounds will be taken care of by health regen.
One Mage – This is where most of my damage is done, everything else is really just spreading the damage out between my other characters. The mage gets Freeze, Fire Ball, Electrical Storm, Power Siphon, Flickering Flame and a bunch of Spell Mastery. I use him to fill everyone with flickering flames, then blast my enemies with an Electrical Storm. Once they’re down, use power siphon to keep them weak while everybody heals up, then finally let them rest while I everyone else finished off the enemy, ready to start the cycle again. The other attacks are really just in case of a change of plan.
And that’s the grand master plan. Really simple, and it seems to work for a hundred levels, no problem. I rarely have time to make it much further than that, but I’ve never come across a point where this technique seems to run out of steam. I forget who said about Woody Gutherie that anyone can make something complex, but it takes a genius to make something simple. But it’s a philosophy I run by.
Dungeon crawl lineup – Both campaign modes and the infinite mode I lump under the one area here. It would be far too complex to tell you everything I do here, so I’m just gonna give you the classes I use, and you can be all smart and smug and work out the majority of the technique from everything above.
Lineup one: Barbarian, Cleric, Mage, Rogue. This is my favourite, and most successful lineup by far.
Lineup two: Four Clerics. This is fun if you balance them well, and you can do some serious damage to the undead. Has a slight flaw with ranged attacks, as they cost a lot of power. Clerics tend to be a little too stretched in a well balanced group, but this gives them the chance to specialise, letting them fulfill so much more potential. The conversations they have between floors is really boring and preachy though.
Lineup three: Warrior, Ranger, Mage, Cleric. Basically a variation on the first lineup. It doesn’t work so well, in my opinion, but may work better for someone else. Warriors aren’t so well balance as barbarians.
Lineup four: Warrior, Ranger, Mage, Rogue. This is the lineup I use when I’m doing whacky stuff generally. Warrior with a crossbow, Mage with a sword, Ranger with a sword, and Rogue with a long bow. I think. My memory isn’t great. It’s a rubbish lineup anyway, but it can be kinda funny. It’s also useful to stretch yourself and use things in weird ways sometimes. I’ll also occasionally swap out the rogue for a Cleric, and use them as a ranged unit. Or swap someone out for a conjurer.
There you go. All fun there. I think that’s about all I use. Hope some of that was useful.
about 1 year ago
I usually played with the “hard” difficulty (150% multiplier) and “tactical” mode (50% multiplier). Not having power regen is not really a problem in the later levels (I got to level 130 or something before I got bored). Power regeneration comes in the form of items (hydraskin cloak, orb of replenishment, signet of demonslayer, ring of boundless energy).
The trick is simply being able to kill or disable every opposing monster on the first turn. What usually happens is, after the first round of attacks from my group, at most one or two monsters are left alive, and those are blinded. During boss fights, 1 or 2 get killed and everybody else gets blinded/stunned on the first turn, and then it’s a cakewalk.
I’ve got warrior, cleric, rogue, ranger.
Kill:
Everybody has pretty good lethality, from 15-40%.
Warrior’s got “Execute” for those precision kills. I think he currently has a Hydra’s tooth for lethality.
The Ranger’s “Hunter’s Prowess” is pretty good. I think I also upped his accuracy to 140% to better take advantage of the sweet “Force of Nature” skill, which ignores armor and does amazing damage with a spear.
The Rogue’s “Create Opening” creates another chance for those awesome kill/stun effects to come into play. Weapon-wise, either “pestilence” or “blood harvester” are good, since the former is almost a guaranteed 1-round kill and the latter almost guarantees survival.
Omega helm rocks. High five rocks. Very nimble gloves rock. The “Assassin’s set” rocks. (all give lethality)
Disable:
Everyone’s got pretty good stun from equipment, warrior especially (head of the gorgon). Don’t even need to use skills. Greaves of the Dwarf King. Quicksilver boots.
There are item combinations that allow the cleric to achieve something like 105% blind, good even for legendary monsters. With the right items, everyone else can achieve 45-65 blind without sacrificing too much damage. This makes a HUGE difference in survivability.
Other:
Orbs of protection rock. Orbs of toxicity rock.
Vampirism rocks (7% on my warrior, at least 14% on everyone else).
I usually try for 50-80% resistance to both poison and stun in each of my heroes, so that there’s a good chance 2 or more of them will always make it through a round.
What sucks (don’t keep up with the advancement in levels):
damage reflection
health regen
strength/endurance bonuses
I’ve uploaded my .sol files if you want to take a look at my setup. Please don’t be alarmed at the heinous number of excellent items – I discovered a nice little item duplication trick that made life a little nicer. The previous comments are still valid without this trick – the game just becomes very easy instead of very very easy.
http://www.2shared.com/file/OkWYhV_X/117_final.html
about 1 year ago
Just my two cents, but I really love to have a Conjuror in my party for the crawl. I was surprised that more people do not seem to like Conjuror as much as I do. I may use it to replace Cleric, or more often, Mage.
I feel that this class has a great deal of diversity, and allows for more types of party configurations. Having more bodies to take damage is very helpful, as I prefer the medium armor classes. Also, not losing an attack for a heal is attractive.
I also very much like the Cleric’s Anoint. Stack that with the Rogue’s Pierce Defenses, and see armored enemies fall!
Also, the Rogue’s Sap is super helpful against enemies with devistating special attacks. Try to stack Cripple with the Warrior’s (as I recall) Overwhelm for nice effect.
The Ranger’s Hunter’s Prowess, Pin, and Nature’s Balm are all favorites of mine, but are all situational.
I think that some of the best aspects of Monster’s Den are not about individual classes, but how different classes mesh together. Any game that has one “super class” that you can just bash about blindly is poorly designed, in my opinion. Congrats to Garin for making a game with nuance and many different game play options!
about 1 year ago
If you’re really serious about getting some deep opinions then we probably need a sandbox mode. Since the game feeling changes from level 10 or so, and again once you get a lot of power, quickness and status effect items as well as your passives built up, it’s too much trouble to test out the balance of very many team setups that may be great- but have some specific item or level requirements.
The most obvious problem has been mentioned. Healing is lacking, so not only are you almost obliged to take a cleric, that cleric is probably stuck in the healing role instead of being able to play around much with other skills unless you want to double up on a single class. The conjuror can work for healing… but outside of survival mode where aegis can make your shield wall near invincible it’s not very good. It also has by far the most boring passives. I think the summons need to START about as powerful as a fully passive boosted conjuror and from there maybe get 4% life+damage per level as one passive. The other passive would reduce power upkeep cost, a mechanic introduced to balance the fact your summons would be decent fighters with decent skillsets and not just weak meat shields (boring).
Other niche builds have a similar problem. If you want to be different… say… make a swordmage… there aren’t even enough other skills in the set to fill in the spaces since most are intelligence based. We’re not trying to do something absurd here… a skill pretty much says to try making a swordmage! Same for a spear-using ranger… you can barely come up with some skills to use as 4 skills are ranged only, when everything besides rain of arrows could have been written so as to work with a spear (pin, pierce, envenomed “weapon”). Of course that would leave 2 poison weapon skills, but I’d probably change rogue’s to a poison cloud bomb (AoE). Similar with a rogue… it has access to a bow, but 4 of its skills are short range. Adding insult to injury, only the ranger can use a quiver. The funny thing about this is the coup de grace is NOT only short range, which is actually the main advantage to using a bow in the first place (in tandem with a faster ranger’s pin), when my image of a coup de grace is a point blank shot or slash. Do you see my general complaint here? Giving classes different weapons is part of making classes different… but every weapon in that class should be relatively well supported. Possibilities are available and hinted at, but in practice I feel a lot of times I feel pidgeonholed into taking a few certain setups. Like, if I want to try something interesting, I’m still stuck hauling a cleric and mage type around unless I want to run into lots of trouble. And on that, another example… the wraith enemy… which singlehandledly almost forces you to take a mage as other enemies fall before your team. The gargoyle is also resistant, but lots of classes can get around it or at least maintain a stun and wear it down… whereas that wraith just keeps doing armor piercing attacks while holding poison and stun immunity while many parties can hardly touch them without some luck.
The overall point there is that variety is the spice of life… if you provide a skill as a niche that pretty much says… hey, try making a crossbow warrior! Well, it might not be optimal, but is it beyond just being just somewhat viable but actually at least generally good and variable? A crossbow warrior doesn’t need to rain arrows from the heavens like a ranger, but can it actually take advantage of being both heavily armored and ranged? Currently, not really- 5 skills are flagged melee and 1 shield. And as variety is the spice of life, if I take any party of 4 different classes, will I run into any severe trouble? The wraith issue and healing being pretty concentrated on a couple classes comes to mind there.
about 1 year ago
i love this game and have been playing sence it came out.
the majority of the skills in the game have some nitch to fill. but ive always had issues with the conjourers skills, every time i use any of the summons(except the wargolem) they seem to die quickly and i only would get use out of them if the casters speed was higher. i dont know how they are later in the game, as i never got there eather was killed repeatedly or wondered why i have a conjuor in my party in the 1st place.
another thing about the summons i didnt like is they are all melee 2 have spells and one is ment to be in melee but with out regen (i know your supposed to heal them to get there mana back up) it all just seems clunky not to mention only haveing 2 spots to choose from which i never found a good place for them unless i ran with 2-3.
ive always seen a combo in conjour/barb jossle/twister/charge it worked decently but if you try and use the shadows as temp targets for jossle they dont leave your stuck with a null spot.
i enjoy the “support” role the conjour is but it seems to lack
about 1 year ago
Hard to say really, I only know which skills I use ‘personally’. But my outfit is – 1 Warrior, 1 Rogue, 1 Mage and 1 Barbarian.
For the warrior, I use:
Power attack – When possible.
Shield Wall – Against big groups or in the presence of very strong enemies.
Inspire – For prospectfully long skirmishes or tough enemies, and when I don’t have enough power to cast Shield wall.
Cleave – Also when it’s conveniant
Resolve – To keep my warrior virtually impossible to take down.
For the Rogue, I use -
Cripple – To keep the faster enemies from doing damage as quickly as possible.
Flash Powder – For the use specified
Pierce defence – When I equip the bow, this can be useful for taking down a range of enemies which are heavily armoured.
Sneak Attack – Prefferably to target or get rid of enemies quickly which are on the back row or out of reach.
Create opening – To deal heavy damage to an enemy.
For the Mage, I use -
Electrical Storm – Usually to finish off enemies with low health, but with the added bonus that the rest get damaged.
Arcane Armour – To keep my mage alive for as long as possible.
Power Siphon – Not sure how to get the best effect out of it yet, but I couldn’t find use for any other spells.
For the Barbarian, I use -
Boast – To assist the rogue when making enemies pass their turn alot later, when I need to take them out premierly.
Charge – For the reason the ability is there.
Jostle – To swap positions with an ally in order to give me a different attack trajectory; so I can move to another position if I want to charge another enemy.
Dismember – To soften up strong enemies which inflict alot of damage, before they have a chance to attack me.
———————————————
Allthough, nobody can really say which abilities/spells are more useful than others, they can only document the ones they know how to use. I’m sure every spell/ability has some kind of use.
about 1 year ago
Well my line up is Rouge in top left, warrior top mid, ranger bottom left, and Mage Bottom Left, so I’ll just talk about those 4.
Generally, i focus more on the gear on what my characters are using very early, so i can mix the quickness around to pick out which moves i want to go first. I ended up with:
Quickness levels:
Warrior: 90
Mage: 80
Rouge: 70
Ranger: 67
This took a bit of a while to arrange, as i had to gather a lot of “of Speed” armor for the warrior and “of Accuracy” for the ranger. So now I’ll move onto skills.
Warrior:
Cleave is by far, the most important skill you’ll get, as long as your warrior is in the middle, he/she can dish out a crapload of damage.
Execute is decent but i prefer not to use it as much because its a waste of power.
Inspire is a must have, as I use it to boost my Mage and Ranger to do ridiculously high amounts of damage.
Defiance is also a very good skill, as then one can have their warrior tank, especially once the rouge starts upgrading their elusiveness abilities.
I don’t use shield wall or bloodlust, as I generally equip my warrior with a longsword and a “? parrying dagger of speed” to achieve the speed effect. Bloodlust doesn’t seem worth the trouble, and Adrenaline is like a smaller form of Inspire, so that goes to waste as well.
Overwhelm is a decent skill, which goes in hand with the quickness ability.
Overall, I believe that warrior is better than Barbarian.
RANGER——————————————–
Hail of Arrows is essential: Especially, once i combine Thief’s luck with it or if i have an accuracy bonus from my armor. (I try to keep my accuracy at least around 120% for my ranger. Yes I am an armor freak.)
Pierce is decent, as it starts out as one of your best skills.
I use Envenomed arrow quite a bit, compared to most people, especially on big boss fights where all i do is rack up poison damage.
Swiftness is useless for me, as I already outpace all of the creatures and bosses on Book of Dread. Hunter’s Prowess is only good on creatures.
Nature’s balm is very good, as i usually split my 3 points into intellect, dexterity, and endurance. And this offers constant healing with the anti-poison bonus. Trouble is that if you take 4 turns applying this to everyone, its a waste of power.
Force of Nature, Healing Lore, and Focus are bad skills, especially in higher up levels. Creature Lore was a bad passive skill, as I would generally kill monsters in two hits or so. Vitality was important for me, big time. 25% passive regen health was a biggie for me. Pin was decent, but i had my Mage do most of the stunning as she went second and chain linked coup de grace with my Rouge.
Mage—————————————————
Only 3 skills i ever used frequently were Electrical Storm, Cosmic Prison and Arcane Armor. Everything else was redundant due to either a large amount of passive power regen from armor or quickness of kills. Her passive skills were by far the best.
Rouge—————————————————
I would generally look for a pestilence blade to equip her with, or some other overpowered dagger.
Sneak Attack: Essential, let me hit anyone, anywhere, anytime.
Poison: Decent, especially on boss fights.
Create Opening: Useful, especially when fighting people with no armor, works well with Inspire.
Pierce Armor: Must have, great to use on dwarves and humans.
Coupe de Grace: Used in conjunction with Cosmic Prison, had no other use for it.
Everything else was useless.
The rouge had decent passive abilities, especially poisoncraft, which pretty much ensured a one hit kill on any normal enemy as my poison damage would just about equal the amount of damage I dealt with pestilence blade. elusiveness bothered me a lot though, as it started directing all of the attacks toward my warrior and mage.
So as for my line of attack
Warrior- Inspire
Mage- Electrical Storm
Rouge- Sneak Attack/Create opening on any character i feel would cause me the most trouble.
Ranger- Hail of Arrows (Usually, every single arrow hits due to accuracy bonus)
From there, i kill off most of the weak nonarmored units, including the boss, if i directed my sneak attack on him/her instead. This usually leaves me with 3 units, and then i take it easy from there.
about 1 year ago
Here’s what I use by class:
Rogue:
Coup de Grace
Warrior:
Cleave
Mage:
Electrical storm
Those are really the only three classes that I use, and those are the ones that you don’t start out with that I use.
about 1 year ago
My usual strategy:
— High quickness, at least 65. With 4 moves, I can usually take out 2 enemies before they can even strike.
— I use a lot of power moves so I try to get the Runed weapons/equipment.
— My strategy with my latest group (Mage/Rogue/Cleric/Warrior). Thieves Luck to increase accuracy, then Holy Light to decrease their accuracy. Then Mage uses enscorcelled blade and Warrior uses Overwhelm. By then, I’ve usually killed two enemies.
Mage – The best player.
- I use enscorcelled blade all the time. I equip him with a sword and let him hit 4 times, even the back row. I make sure he has plenty of power regen.
- Cosmic prison to stun
- Freeze to kill those which are resistant to physical damage.
- I have him on the front row. Despite low armor, doesn’t really make a difference.
Warrior
- I use overwhelm all the time. With leadership, pretty much I kill one the first turn.
- I give him a spear and he stands on the back row.
Rogue
- Use him for Thieves Luck so I don’t have to get a lot of weapons with accuracy. Accuracy is important to me as I use the moves that only use a percentage of hits (like enscorcelled blade.
Cleric
- Only use him for Holy Light (worth it’s weight in gold when it makes them miss) and
- Smite to stun those with 0 stun resistance.
- Rogue and Cleric are my bit players to Mage and Warrior who are the killers.
In my other group I have Mage/Mage/Ranger/Barbarian
— I have the Mages and Ranger use their multiple hit moves and will usually kill 1 enemy with 1 move.
— Ranger uses Force of Nature
— Barbarian uses Charge. I need the others to clear the front row for him to hit. It will take a big chunk of HP out of the enemy. I need him to hit Hydra and other bosses on the back row, otherwise you need to kill everyone on the first row before you can get to the boss on the back row. Him and the Mage are the only two I have that will take big chunks of HP from someone in the back row without disposing of the front row first.
— Conjuror, the worst and weakest character. Either that, or I don’t know how to use him. The summoned creatures are all weak.
My basic strategy is to hit first and hit with multiple moves (ensorcelled blade, overwhelm and Force of Nature). Additionally, I increase my accuracy and decrease theirs and stun them when I can while building up power. Power regen is very important since I use them a lot.
about 1 year ago
Well, I wish I had seen this earlier. I’m not sure how much help I can be a few months out, but I’ll give my opinions.
To contradict what many people have said, I don’t think any skills are “useless” or even “weak” (Except for the cleric’s Purify, which becomes useless once benediction reaches max). Every skill can be combined to make a unique and effective build, especially the less common ones.
Anyway, that’s just my comment on other people’s comments. Back on task: Several months ago on Kongregate, I’m made a post saying I would like to see more skill definition, or more of a skill “tree,” as it were. Never one to simply make a suggestion without offering a solution, I drew up said tree, but I never got around to posting it. So, here it is now:
As a preface, I basically took all the active skills and put them under a passive skill. The idea is that for every one point in a passive skill, you can pick one of the skills under it (any of them, not a pre-arranged “these ones before you get the one you really want” sort of deal). I tried to divide them with a sense of logic, but there were some gaps, and some areas that didn’t quite fit. Also, I couldn’t fill out the entire list, so I guess that means there’s room for improvement. But hey, if it helps, I’m glad it does.
Anyway, each class has four passive skills, and each passive skill has four active skills under it (Again, in no prearranged order).
Skills I couldn’t think up I left as “???”
***Warrior***
Leadership: 3% chance that successful attack by the warrior will cause a random ally to perform a bonus attack on the same target
-Inspire (15p): Increase all party members’ damage by 20% for the remainder of the battle.
-Rally (25p): Remove stun and all stat-reducing effects from target.
-???
-???
Armor Proficiency: 2% bonus to the Armor Rating gained from armor.
-Defiance (30p): User’s health will not be dropped below # health until user’s next turn. (based on endurance)
-Resolve (40p): User recovers # health (based on endurance)
-Shield wall (60p): [requires shield] User gains +25% armor resistance and is the sole target of attacks until his next turn. Can only be used in the front row. Other members may still take damage from area attacks.
-???
???
-Power attack (30p): Melee attack at 130% damage.
-Cleave (60p): Melee attack at 100% damage to all targets in melee range.
-Overwhelm (75p): Melee attack at 100% damage. If the warrior’s quickness is higher than target’s quickness, the warrior will perform two bonus attacks on the same target.
-Execute (*): Melee attack at 100% damage. Uses all the warrior’s remaining power as a percentage chance to kill the target outright.
???
-Adrenaline (25p): user gains immunity to stun and 30% bonus damage for the remainder of the battle.
-Blood lust (30p): Melee attack at 110% damage. If the attack kills the target, the warrior gains 50 power.
-???
-???
***Cleric***
Wrath: 3% chance that the Smite and Litany of Pain spells will stun the target.
-Smite (30p): Ranged magic attack for #. Does 200% damage to undead. [scales with intelligence]
-Litany of pain (55p): Infilcts # magical damage to all enemies. [scales with intelligence]
-Anoint (30p): Target party member deals 175% normal damage on next attack.
-???
Benediction: 4% chance that Purify or Purge will remove all negative effects from the target.
-Purify (25p): Removes curse, poison, and wither(no health or energy regen) from the target.
-Purge (50p): Removes curse, poison, and wither(no health or energy regen) from the party
-Holy light (40p) reduce all enemies’ accuracy by 30% for the remainder of the battle. Deals slight damage to Undead. Always hits.
-Zeal (35p): Target gains 200% health and energy regen for the next round and gains stun immunity for the remainder of the battle.
Restoration: Increases the amount of health restored by 2%
-Heal (25p): Restore # health to one member of the party. [scales with intelligence]
-Heal all (60p): Restore # health to all members of the party. [scales with intelligence]
-Revive (75p): Revive a fallen party member with # health. [scales with intelligence]
-Living water (55p): Gives small health regeneration for the remainder of the battle. [OR]: (50p) Gives large health regeneration for three turns. [scales with intelligence]
Chivalry: 1% chance that party members will suffer 50% less damage from an attack. [OR]: 2% (or 3% or 4%) chance that the Cleric will redirect damage to himself for party members that are below half health if the Cleric is above half health.
-Shield of faith (55p): Caster takes no damage until his next turn. Caster receives no power at the beginning of his next turn.
-Fervor (60p): Melee attack at 200% damage.
-???
-???
***Mage***
Spell mastery: 1% chance that no power cost will be deducted when using a power.
-Freeze (25p): Ranged magic attack for # damage. 25% chance to stun the target. [scales with intelligence]
-Fireball (35p): Ranged magic atack for # damage. Adjacent squares take reduced damage. [scales with intelligence]
-Electrical storm (55p): Inflict # magical damage to all enemies. [scales with intelligence]
-???
Warding: 1% chance that incoming damage will be nullified at the cost of 10 power.
-Arcane armor (25p): Caster gains an additional 40% damage resistance for the remainder of the battle.
-Flickering flame (25p): Target gains 100% damage reflection for the remainder of the battle.
-Invisibility (30p) Target may not directly be attacked until his next turn.
-Cosmic prison (30p): Does slight magical damage. Target is stunned and gains 40% damage resistance until his next turn (Damage resistance still applies if stun is resisted). Does not miss. [scales with intelligence]
???
-Ensorcelled blade (75p): [Requires melee weapon] Four ranged melee attacks at 100% damage. Attacks are made at 75% of current accuracy.
-Incinerate (25p): Inflicts # magical damage to a single target in melee range.
-???
-???
Scribing: Reduce the cost of powers by 2% (or 1%) [OR] Add 2 points to maximun energy
-Siphon (20p): Drain up to 30 energy from a single target
-Power siphon (50p): Drain up to 20 power from each enemy.
-Frantic Pact (0p): The Mage recovers all energy, but loses half (or a quarter) of his health.
-???
***Ranger***
Creature lore: 2% chance on attack to decrease the enemy’s damage resistance by 40% for the remainder of the battle. (This may reduce damage resistance below zero)
-Hunter’s prowess (30p): Weapon attack for slight damage increase with a +10% percent chance to instantly kill the target. Does double damage to creatures.
-Force of Nature (55p: Three melee attacks at 100% damage on a single target at 60% current accuracy. Ignores armor.
-Withering Strike (40p): Weapon attack for 110% damage. Target becomes withered (no health or energy regeneration).
-???
Marksmanship: Increase accuracy 1% for every point
-Pierce (30p): Ranged attack at 100% damage. Hits up to two targets in a vertical line.
-Pin (40p): Ranged attack at 75% damage. Stuns the target.
-Rain of arrows (60p): Two ranged attack made at 50% damage on all enemies. Attacks are made at 70% of current accuracy.
-???
Herb Lore: Increases the effect of healing and poison by 1%
-Nature’s balm (35p): Grants target poison immunity and small health regeneration per turn for the remainder of the battle. [scales with intelligence]
-Healing lore (30p): Restore # health to one party member. Cures poison. [scales with intelligence]
-Envenomed arrow (30p): Ranged attack at 100% damage. Applies 4 poison damage. [scales with intelligence]
-???
Vitality: 1% of maxamum health is added to base health regeneration.
-Swiftness (30p): All party members gain+20 to quickness for the remainder of the battle.
-Focus (0p): Recover 25 power.
-???
-???
***Rogue***
Poisoncraft: 2% of damage caused by weapon attacks is added to the target as poison.
-Poison (20p): Weapon attack at 100% damage. Applies # poison damage. [scales with intelligence]
-Sap Power (40p): Melee attack for 50% damage. Reduces target’s power by 75.
-???
-???
Elusivness: 3% chance that enemies will not directly target the Rogue if other targets are available. The Rouge can still be a secondary target of an area attack directed at someone else.
-Hide (20p): User may not be the target of direct attacks until his next turn. User also receives a 200% damage bonus to his next attack.
-Sneak attack (30p): Melee attack on any target at 120% damage.
-Preparation (30p): Decreses user’s speed to zero for the next turn. 30% (or 50%) chance to counterattack enemy attacks.
-???
???
-Pierce defences (30p): Weapon attack at 110% damage. Ignores target’s armor.
-Cripple (25p): Weapon attack for a maximum of 50% damage. This attack cannot kill the target. If the attack is successful, the target’s Quickness is reduced to zero for the remainder of the battle.
-Coup de grace (30p): Weapon attack that instantly kills a stunned enemy.
-Cold blood (50p): Melee attack at 25% damage. 75% chance to stun any target. Does not miss.
???
-Create opening (40p): Melee attack at 75% damage. If it hits, a random ally performs a bonus weapon attack on the same target.
-Flash powder (40p): Reduces the accuracy of a target in melee range by 50% for the remainder of the battle. 50% chance to stun. Does not miss.
-Thief’s Luck (20p): All members of the party gain +30 to accuracy for the remainder of the battle.
-???
***Barbarian***
Brutality: 2% chance that an attack made by the Barbarian will cause 50% additional damage.
-Whirlwind (65p): Melee attack at 100% damage. A lesser attack is made on every enemy adjacent to the target.
-Charge (35p): Melee attack at 160% damage. Attack has a +50% chance to stun the target. Target must be directly ahead and must have an empty vertical space between the user and the target.
-???
-???
Vengence: 4% chance when damage is received that damage inflicted next turn increases by 30%.
-Reckless fury (20p): Increases damage dealth by 150%, but reduces damage resistance by 50 (This can take damage resistance below zero). Lasts for the remainder of the battle.
-Enrage (0p) If the Barbarian takes damage before his next turn, his power is completely restored.
-Intimidate (70p): Enemies will prefer to attack targets other than the user for the remainder of the combat. In addition, user’s quickness is increased by 10
-Berzerker’s Rush (40p): Inflicts 10% of maximum health to the user (will not kill the user). 150% damage to the target. Pushes the target to the back line. (If there is another enemy there, that enemy receives 75% damage)
???
-Pulverize (55p): Melee attack at 120% damage. Reduces the target’s damage resistance by 20 for the remainder of the battle (This will not take damage resistance below zero).
-Dismember (50p): Melee attack at 100% damage. Reduces the target’s damage by 30% for the remainder of the battle.
-Last Stand (40p): May only be used when below 20% health. Melee attack at 200% damage and +20% chance to kill the target instantly.
-???
Brawler: Adds 5% damage to unarmed attacks
-Jostle (10p): Swap position with target ally or empty square.
-Boast (30p): Targets any enemy. Does not miss. Target receives a penalty to Quickness (up to 20) for the remainder of the battle. In addition, a random ally performs a bonus weapon attack on the target.
-Pummel (60p): Four attacks at 50% damage. Attacks are made at 80% of current accuracy. If any attacks are successful, 50% chance to stun target. If the stun fails, the attack reduces the target’s stun resistance by 5% cumulative. (If the stun is resisted, the stun resistance is not reduced.)(Must be unarmed)
-???
***Conjuror***
Augment strength: 2% extra damage for summoned creatures’ attacks.
-Dire wolf (30p): Summon a Dire Wolf to an empty square on your side of the battlefield. Dire wolves are expendable close range fighters.
-War golem (60p): Summon a Wargolem to an empty square on your side of the battlefield. Wargolems are heavily armored and ideal for forming a protective line.
-Living Sword (60p): Summons a Living Sword to an empty square on your side of the battlefield. Living Swords have high damage but low health and defense.
-???
Augment health: 2% extra health for summoned creatures.
-Manasprite (50p): Summon a Manasprite to an empty square on your side of the battlefield. Manasprites are weak fighters, but can restore mana to your party.
-Bloodsprite (50p): Summon a Bloodsprite to an empty square on your side of the battlefield. Bloodsprites are weak fighters, but can heal your party.
-Refresh Energies (25p) Restore # health and 50 power to a friendly summoned creature. Removes poison and curse effects. [scales with intelligence]
-???
Channeling: Increase energy regeneration by 2%
-Call soul (75p): Revives a fallen party member with full health but no power.
-Wall of Shadows (30p): Summon a Shadow to every empty square on your side of the battlefield. Shadows act as decoys, and can curse the enemy or remove curses from your party.
-Eldritch Aegis (40p): Increases the resistance of all party members by 15% for the remainder of the battle.
-???
???
-Vortex (40p): Summon a whirlwind to attack any single enemy, cuasing # damage and knocking him into an adjacent empty square. If there are no adjacent empty squares, the whirlwind dissipates immediately but inflicts an additional 20% damage.
-Banish (20p): Instantly destroy a summoned enemy creature.
-Teleport (50p): Swap the target location with another location on the same side of the battlefield (I.E.: can swap allies with other allies or enemies with other enemies, or with an empty square)
-???
about 1 year ago
This is a little late, but I may as well. Book of Dread was a lot of fun.
In terms of party builds, I always thought Rogue, Warrior, Ranger, and Cleric was the best.
Rogue:
Best skills: Sneak Attack, Poison, Pierce Defences, Poisoncraft
I omitted the “worst skills” section because, in all practical senses, they completely fail to matter. The fact that daggers work off of two offensive stats, and that both stats are automatically raised every time you clear a floor, means that the Rogue gains more and more offensive momentum as you move on. This stacks with Poisoncraft. Buy Sneak Attack, put the rest of the points in Poisoncraft; as your Rogue starts pulling ahead of everyone else, Poisoncraft starts making more and more of a difference.
Furthermore, the further in the game you get, the more energy regen is available. Late-game, it’s easy to get enough energy regen to make the Rogue abilities completely trivial, meaning that for all intents and purposes the Rogue becomes a far-range character. And In infinite mode, NOTHING in the game compares to the damage a Rogue built this way can do. It’s absurd. It can’t heal, tank, kill multiple enemies, or take above average amounts of damage, but that’s what the rest of the party is for.
Daggers are the entire point of a Rogue. Only use anything else if it’s the first level.
Warrior:
Best skills:
Inspire, Cleave, Overwhelm
Worst skills: Defiance, Execute, Resolve
The Warrior is designed here to complement the other two offensive characters. Inspire is important for making the Rogue’s late-game attacks instant kills and for making it easier for Hail of Arrows to kill chaff. Cleave helps with front-row chaff, especially after Hail of Arrows. Overwhelm is for bosses or anything that needs to die Right Now; it’s fairly easy, late-game, to get enough +Speed gear to have a Warrior with a parrying dagger able to use it on anything threatening, and +Speed also helps with Inspire.
The Warrior *can* tank; the problem is, once you pass a certain point in the game, tanking isn’t necessary. The Cleric will get to the point where healing every turn is perfectly practical; your tanking ability therefore doesn’t gain you much and comes at the expense of damage, which means you *take* more damage as well.
Swords are the most useful, because they’re the lightest. If you can’t use Overwhelm anyway, though, the others aren’t bad.
Ranger:
Best skills: Hail of Arrows, Pierce, Swiftness
Worst skills: Nature’s Balm, Healing Lore, Force of Nature
The Ranger is additional damage until you can get enough +Energy regen and +Accuracy gear, ideally combined with some of the +energy on battle end equipment. When Hail of Arrows reaches a certain threshold with those stats, it becomes an amazing tool for mowing down groups, especially combined with Inspire, Anoint (which, IIRC, does work for every hit of Hail of Arrows on the enemy party), Cleave, and Sneak Attack.
Aside from that, Pierce is great for general damage. Hunter’s Prowess is good for when that extra bit of damage matters, and turns the Hunter into a Rogue against Beasts. Swiftness sets up for Overwhelm, and in some situations can be useful for killing something before it hits you, thanks to the higher damage capability of the Rogue and Warrior.
Force of Nature might be good if not for the fact it invalidates Pierce and Hail of Arrows, the most useful skills in the Ranger skill set. Using a Ranger for it leaves them with nothing else; you may as well just do the magical version with a Mage, who isn’t that much less durable.
Bows, of course.
Cleric
Best skills: Heal, Heal All, Revive, Anoint
Worst skills: Purify, Shield of Faith
Healbot. Anoint exists to make Hail of Arrows and Cleave amazing, and to allow the rogue to OHKO any boss of note. Smite is notable for being a decent source of magical damage, but since the Cleric is one of the few characters leveling up three stats (you want a normal attack worth *something*), it’s not astounding even against undead.
The two “worst skills” deserve note. Purify is pointless – Heal All cures poison anyway. Curses aren’t threatening enough. +Poison Resist is good against Medusa, but Medusa is one specific boss you may not run into more than once, and you want to blitz her anyway. Shield of Faith is in the running for “worst skill in the game”; sure, if you’re up against something that can only hit the front row, and everyone else is in the back row, then it might be useful. But it’s a panic button that makes your healer unavailable and worthless afterward. NOT GOOD.
Maces, obviously.
The rest of the classes suffer in comparison.
Mage? Worse Ranger. He’s ranged artillery and anti-group, but his spells grow in damage too slowly for their cost and he has durability woes. Ensorcelled Blade mades his damage impressive – at the cost of making him a Warrior with a worse version of Overwhelm, much lower durability, no Inspire, no Cleave, and a normal attack that’s off-stat in exchange for slightly more damage and some crowd control.
Barbarian? Worse Warrior. Exchanges Inspire for debuffs (which don’t survive the enemy dying), more damage (at the cost of conditions which make it difficult to use or survive using), and a worse version of Cleave (which, in exchange, can hit back row sometimes). Charge could have potential if it could hit anything provided there’s one row between the user and target if not for the fact the Barbarian has to be in the same column.
Conjuror? Worse Cleric. They have party healing and party energy restoration, but they can’t do it on short notice, and the healing is both lower than the Cleric’s and unable to be boosted by Censers. Their summons would be useful for damage and tanking if not for the fact you can only have two of them at a time, and at least one of those should be a bloodsprite. Eldritch Aegis is quite good, Banish has its uses, and Vortex works well, but they just can’t justify their use.
So, yeah. The classes can’t really be tiered, because which ones you use depend on your party; I’d say Rogues are the best, but Rogue/Rogue/Rogue/Rogue isn’t a good party. But Rogue, Warrior, Ranger, and Cleric are each the best at their given role.
about 1 year ago
@Particleman, I’ve skim read your plan, and so far, I really like it. Going through it in more detail now, to see if I can help with the gaps a little…
about 1 year ago
I wrote what i though of all the classes and in what situation I used them (in case I use them in an interesting way or the opposite, that would make my comment for that class totally worthless)
Warrior : used this one as tank (didn’t really care about damage)
— Best skills —
Resolve : with high endurance you end up healing half of your hp with low cost
Armor Proficiency : Not sur what armor did but the more the better
— Ok skills —
Inspire : Only for long fights
Cleric : Also used as tank (so no censer unfortunately)
— Best Skills —
Heal All : That’s what a cleric is for, however i didn’t used ceser so i though it didn’t heal much
Fervor : Massive damages
Anoint : with high speed it can buff Lightning storm for MAJOR damages and quick disposure
Shield of Faith : Worst at start because of high cost, Best at end because it gives anti-melee for 1 round and you get % back when fight ends
— Ok Skills —
Litany of Pain : Med damages on all enemies
— Bad Skills —
Smite : unless you are against undead or you have lot of Wrath i think it doesn’t deal enough damage
Wrath : didn’t use smite
Mage : Main dps
— Bestest Skill —
Lightning Storm : high damage on all enemies
– Best skills —
Freeze : high damage on 1 enemy with low cost
Fireball : bastard child from Freeze and Lightning storm (nice damages on small area with small cost)
— Ok skills —
Cosmic prison : 100% stun but damage resist
— Bad skills —
Arcane Armor : My mage didn’t get hit that much, so i never ended up using
Invisibility : see Arcane Armor
Incinerate : Mage at melee range is a bad idea
Ranger : dps, often used with stun (dunno why… just happened to be that way)
— Best Skills —
Hail of Arrows : Nice dps with a bit of boost (137%) you get 100% accuracy also you always end up stunning/insta-killing/Creature Loring(?) at least 1 guy. However the fact that poison effect is splitted by 12 makes it a bit sad.
Creature Lore : 40% (at least) more damage is neat.
— Ok Skills —
Pin : monsters tends to get high stun resist and it barely worked for me (bad luck i guess)
Hunter’s Prowess : Really nice about 1 floor out of 5 (or 6?)
Pierce : Attack 2 monster with low cost
— Bad Skills —
Focus : fight must be 4-5 round long for it to be worth anything
Swiftness : Quickness is already good end-game, no need for boost
Rogue : also dps, usualy with poison on hit
— Best skills —
Pierce Defenses : 1-hit gargoyles, also nice for others high def monsters, sometime I uses it only for 10% added damage to finish enemy.
Create Opening : Major Damages
Poisoncraft : added weapon damages is nice
— Good Skills —
Poison : always killed legendary monsters that way always like additional poison damage for big monsters or killing with low cost. However, you need long battles for it to worth anything
Thief’s luck : 100 accuracy for everyone (also near 100% with hail of arrows or other multi hit attacks)
— Bad skills —
Flash Powder (other than for Minotaur or medusa) only 1 target, only 50% stun
***** Skills Needed *****
AoE : Poison Aoe or even Flash Powder with Fireball’s range would be good, This class is one of the 2 the doesn’t have AoE
Barbarian : never used so i can’t really comment
Conjuror : Used this one as dps also reviver (when tank is warrior)
— Best Skills —
Wall of shadows : low cost for 2 guys that can remove curse and tank 1 hit
Vortex : massive damage on 1 unit
— Ok skills —
Call Soul : costs too much to be really useful
Wargolem : nice tank, low damage output
Banish : Good against summons and morphers
Eldritch shield : 15% less damage is always nice
— Bad skill —
Manasprite : basic regen is enough
Bloodsprite : cost too much power for healing
Refresh energy : summoning a new one is nearly as efficient
Augment strength/health : didn’t see much difference (maybe it’s only an impression though)
about 1 year ago
I’m a bit late to the party but as an avid MDen fan and player, I wanted to give my 2cents having read one or two posts I disagreed with.
Someone on the first page stated that Mages Power Siphon was relatively useless. On the contrary, you can quite easily turn the tide of extremely tricky fights with it beit regular dungeon monsters, bosses and most legendary creatures.
A hefty chunk of ranged orientated Monsters can be reduced to constantly ‘Passing’ their turn purely because they cannot attack without Power, so with a Mage Casting PSiphon each turn pretty much renders X amount of opponents useless and easily picked off even by low/non-DPS orientated players. I can quite happily chop down a Hydra, for example, because Hydra Heads do NOTHING with no Power and the Hydra itself only uses power to summon more heads if one dies. This reduces an entire legendary creature into a case of sitting back and ranging it to death with little to no damage to your party once you get to the stage where they have to pass for power.
This works on Gorgons too, with tact – If you have a meatshield in front row then reducing it’s Power to 0 means it cannot annoy you with constant AoE Stun & Poison but will simply use regular melee attacks on your meatshield while you pummel it to death.
So no, Power Siphon is not a waste – I would be very upset if some class out there was not gifted with the tactical choice of swapping out it’s DPS for the sake of opponent power management when the player chooses to take that route.
Thats Power Siphon out of the way so I’ll give some more general ideas and suggestions.
Summoner is hit and miss. I enjoyed the fact that I could fill up the two remaining squares with additional temporary party members but ultimately they are all weak, even fully buffed, and the Summoner’s own damage is little to none making it a very lucklustre choice. I would still love to see a Summoner/Necromancer type Class available, however, where Summoning is an option but not an entire base of it’s ability. Think Diablo 2 Necromancer where it’s about buffing/debuffing/draining with summonables being optional support and you get the idea.
Having one choice for a Healer is a bit depressing. I’ve not had the chance to bother trying a damage dealing Cleric but I always have one in the group purely as it’s the only real healer.
Hunter Heals are absolutely worthless bar Nature’s Balm which is a great ability. On the note of Hunters (This includes Mages), it’s somewhat depressing when a skill in the Tree emphasises weapons that are unsuiting to a Class. As someone has said before, the last place you want a Mage (Even a Hunter) is in the frontline – Spears are an exception but no melee weapons really live up to it for any ranged class in MD2 when the entire tree emphasises other weapons / abilities or formation placement.
Just as an example, I hit in arounds level 125 at one stage so all my characters were maxed out, skillwise – The hunter had 1020+ HP Regen through gear and skill and yet it could still die in one hit from certain enemies. Now, why would I want it in the frontline taking hits from melee on top of that even if it used to regenerate most if not all HP per turn?
Poisons, Vampirics and Reflection can be heavily emphasised by the group to do most of the players work for them. It’d be nice to maybe reduce to overall benefit of said abilities via gear but maybe make it so certain classes can base their skills around it to at least make it less of an all round choice and one more tactical per character.
Another example of this – Arcane Armor for Mages – Why would you take a turn to cast it for -40% Damage Reduction when having Vampiric gear and using AoE/Electric Storm on a full set of Monsters is a guaranteed 100% heal?
You get the idea.
Either way, I am absolutely gagging to get a shot at the upcoming game!
about 1 year ago
Oh aye, almost totally forgot.
Regarding Mages “Invisibility”, notice a few people mentioned they found little use for it. Initially I didn’t think much of it either as I assumed it was Mage Exclusive until one day I misclicked it onto a different character.
The ability to ‘Hide’ a friendly Character until their next turn is quite a valuable asset. To give an example, Minotaur. It’s very annoying knowing their ‘Labyrinth’ ability will randomly reshuffle your formation. There’s been many times my Mage / Cleric / Hunter or something I’d rather have at the back row ends up alone in the front row while my meatshield Warrior is sent to the back… Well then, cast Invisibility on them, problem solved! Assuming the character is faster than the Warrior, which they likely are, the Warrior can then continue to use ShieldWall, Melee can DPS as per usual and the Invisible target can still perform whatever they want on their turn while the Mage keeps them safe.
I’d really like to see it make a return in MD:Godfall as it’s another spell that can be put to good tactical use by the player to struce up the fight.
about 1 year ago
While I have played all dungeons, and in all formats, after the first couple of times through to the end, the only way to play that I find challenging is the Den of Corruption, Extreme, Hardcore, Tactical, Attrition – in other words, as hard as possible. I have made it through the end on occasion by skipping some battles, but am now looking to score a “perfect game.” No Deaths, no Altars, just retreating to the prior level for a free heal.
Given that, the lineup must include a conjurer for Mana. The only lineup I can succeed with consistently is Warrior, Cleric, Ranger, Conjurer. Here are the spells I find useful given these restrictions. If I don’t specifically mention the first three given skills, that doesn’t mean they aren’t important, but I found the importance too obvious to note..
Warrior
Overwhelm – Only effective weapon against leaders on each level, as good as an “execute” for most monsters. Obviously, must wait for speedier weapons/armor.
Adrenaline – can be used in conjunction with Ovewhelm.
Blood Lust – Crucial for Mana Preservation
Defiance – Often, the only thing that can save the battle with the leaders.
Cleric
Purify – Cheap, and the only thing that makes the creature level and Shaman curses survivable.
Heal All — Rarely use – generally only as response to Smaug’s breath.
Blinding – Good, especially with orc Savages and trolls, some benefit for severely wounded undead.
Ranger
Pin – Saves the early round
Poison – Only easy way to prevail on Corruptor, the major monsters as well.
Natures Balm – combined heal and poison immunity make it well worth it.
Pierce – especially with Orc champions and orc shamans
Refresh – self explanatory, but crucial when no attrition.
Conjurer
Mana sprite – again, essential with attrition mode.
Banish – Obviously key to cult and Corruptor battles.
refresh – helps especially with recharging Mana in this mode.
Briefly, when not running in full attrition mode, I found the following useful in addition
Conjurer
WarGolem – Great in Fall of Telluride – not some much in dungeon.
Rogue
Siphon
Pierce Defences
Coup De Grace – especially with a crossbow, with a fast ranger
Mage
Siphon – great against cultists, major monsters
Cosmic Prison
about 1 year ago
Hi. I don’t know if you are after skill suggestions but if you are still looking for some new ideas I’d have many as I have played RPGs for over ten years.
One I think would fit in well is a summoner type class aoe that transfers the damage done into summoning a new ally.
The strength of the summoned creature would be proportional to the force being faced as well as scaling with the caster’s gear. It also counters the downside of summoners which, I felt, is having to much to do and having few spells that scale with equipment.
Further casts can use the damage done to heal that summoned ally.
about 1 year ago
Found this entry, so I registered to disagree with many of the people ahead of me.
My favorite build is 2 rangers, a mage, and a rogue. If I can make it past the first 1-3 levels, these guys do great. In fact, I just beat a level 61 Pandora’s Box with that team.
In terms of abilities, I find myself frustrated that I can’t use more of the Ranger abilities. There are more good ones than I can arm. Nature’s Balm is why I bring the rangers along, but I use Pin all the time (goes great with Rogue’s Coup de Grace), and generally arm Pierce, Healing Lore (for emergencies), and Focus (to save potions and time). I wish I could arm Hail of Arrows, Envenomed Arrow, or Hunter’s Prowess more often. They seem like they’d be fun to use, but I need more slots! I always arm the Rangers with bows, though, so I never use the Force of Nature. Also, the increased health regen is fantastic and the Creature Lore is great for the bosses and legendaries. Great passives. Playing with Rangers make the game more enjoyable. Focus, in particular, is great, because I generally attempt to heal my characters to full before finishing off the final enemy of a battle, and focus allows me to increase the heal rate of the characters to match the damage done by the enemies, then regen the power so I don’t have to spend 8 cycles skipping turns. For me, the game wouldn’t be worth playing without these Ranger abilities.
The mage is good. I use Freeze, Arcane Armor, Cosmic Prison, Electrical Storm, and Invisibility. Power Siphon appears to be useless. Fireball needs a stronger hit on the target to be useful. I wonder if anyone arms their mage with a sword instead of a wand, or puts them in the front row (for Incinerate). Seems like suicide, but maybe with the Arcane Armor it could work, or against the Minotaur? Anyway, I’d love to see the mage get either a Revive or a Remove Curse, but maybe that’s too much. If he’s going to be too slow to beat the Wraith to the punch without a lot of added speed, at least he could negate the effect. The passives are good, too. Flickering Flames is a cute idea, but I rarely use it, because of the lop-sidedness between the character health/damage and the enemy health/damage. The enemy damage is small compared to the damage my characters do, so reflecting it back against the much greater health of the enemies is silly. Freeze is hard to use because it takes power but it’s nearly impossible to maintain a high enough intelligence to give it more damage than the wand does. If I want the enemy stunned, I go with Cosmic Prison instead. Why would I pay 25 power to do less damage and only get a 25% chance of a stun? It just doesn’t seem to strike a balancing point where it becomes usable.
The Rogue is great too. I arm Poison, Pierce Defenses, Coup de Grace, Flash Powder, and Sap Strength. Coup de Grace is a staple of my battles. I also use Flash Powder to blind the final enemy of a battle, so that my party is hit less often and can recover health and power more quickly. I do have to resort to using potions sometimes, but for some reason, I try to avoid it at all costs. In my build, my rogue hits the hardest (thank you, Bloodseeker!) and is capable of taking the most damage, so I avoid things like Create Opening and Hide. For the same reason, I let my skill points run fallow after I build to 25 Poisoncraft and the other skills. I don’t want my rogue to dodge the hits. I’d rather see Elusiveness translate to enemy misses than to re-targeting to my other characters. Sap Strength is handy, but it makes me mostly glad he’s not a Protector. Sucks to see them use 75 power to drain my character of 20. I also wish that the Minotaur’s Labyrinth ability was power-reliant, so the Rogue could theoretically stop that. Cripple would be nice if it had an additional chance to stun (like the Fearsower). Pierce Defenses is a keeper. I never have enough space to arm the Thief’s Luck or the Sneak Attack. And don’t ditch the passive Poisoncraft. In the higher levels, this makes the Rogue a devastating offensive character. With a fresh weapon, he’s almost a one-hit killer with his normal attack!
So, that’s my take. I see a lot of bad mouthing the Ranger and Rogues here and I just wanted to say they make the game much more playable, as far as I’m concerned.
about 10 months ago
If it’s not too late, I should contribute some information on what skills are “good” and “bad.”
Warriors epitomize the defensive melee expert. They’re tanks, essentially. That means they are not STRICTLY offense material. They don’t even need to take the front line since they equip ranged or back-row weaponry on the side. Warriors equip swords, maces, axes, spears, bows, and crossbows. They can wear heavy armor.
Their line-up begins with Defiance and Power Attack. Power Attack is likely only useful if you want a single, solid blow at relative low cost of 40 Power. It tends to get outclassed by other combat skills. It also requires a Melee Weapon. I throw flak at Warriors for not having the offensive versatility that should come with a diverse armament selection; I use bows to pick off the back-row annoyances which makes my Warrior good for nothing more than being a meat shield. If I cannot use the cool tricks with all my weapons, I tend to question their appropriateness for the situation. Hence, either I don’t bother with bows or I don’t bother with the combat skills.
Defiance is a deceptively cool variant of Shield Wall where the Warrior does not die no matter how much punishment is suffered for that round. In the early game where it’s hardest, I station my Warrior front and center during the really big fights, particularly melee bosses, constantly casting Defiance until my Power wore thin. Meanwhile, everyone else who can afford to do so took positions in the back. A chunk of the enemies’ offensive is wasted while the back-row suckers peppers them with havoc. However Godfall turns out, making Defiance into a “stance” would really screw with the folk who realized what the ability is really good for.
Then came the active skills. Execute is nifty when your lethality is low and your power reigns high. Provided you have 100% accuracy, you can off a tank-like sucker such as the Troll or the “Chosen” magi-warrior in a single hit and not have to worry about pouring others’ energies into them. For most of my Skill Builds, however, I turned Execute aside. The mechanic ought to be switched around, like have it a low-power standard attack with increased Lethality depending on how injured the enemy is. If they’re at 70% Health, you get 30% Lethality with Execute. Another damning aspect, although it lends itself to some amount of realism, is how Execute is applicable only with a Melee weapon.
Resolve is another Skill I don’t use all too often. It’s a cheap version of the Heal Spell that affects only Warriors and doesn’t cure Poison. Like Defiance, Resolve gets better if your Endurance is high. If you’re like me and pour at least one or two points per level into Endurance, then Resolve can get you out of a bind. You do, however, blow a turn healing yourself when you could try something different. Resolve is thematically consistent but tactically limited, just a few steps above being utterly gimped.
Cleave is great… only if you’re in the front-center position and there are actually lines of pigs to slaughter. The program makes the Warrior attack every adjacent space. A Warrior with a Spear can be rear-center. It only deals a standard hit per faceless foe, so unless your striking power is high, you might prefer to save your Power for something else for the Warrior to do. Cleave is damnable because in certain enemy formations, I will shift my Warrior to one of the sides so they eat carnage “over there”. It is rare that I keep a Warrior in one spot throughout a dungeon and I despise having to retool my Skill selection for every fight to accommodate its use. It’s a matter of convenience that I often shun Cleave.
Bloodlust sounds like a Barbarian Skill and might be more appropriate in that selection, but this version deals paltry extra damage. The trick is: if you do decide to use it and manage to kill someone, you gain 50 Power, resulting in a net profit of 20! Bloodlust might actually be a silly complement to Execute or is an upgrade from Power Attack, even if the damage isn’t high. It’s meant to rip a sucker down and get you more than just one less thing to worry about. I used to swing Bloodlust around all the time when I first started playing Book of Dread. It makes the assumption that you butter up a foe before the Warrior gets a turn. What makes Bloodlust tricky is that you have to pause and CALCULATE how much damage you’ll actually do against the enemy’s resistors, because on several occasions I struck home but left the enemy with one point of health left.
Adrenaline Rush is now a Stance, huh? People think twice about blowing a turn on a Skill like this, but it makes all the difference with each blow dealt, and it comes with max Stun Resistance as well. It adds a little extra than what Inspire provides in terms of damage, and when you’re starting out with little to no Stun Resistance, this pretty much keeps basilisks, Guardians and Chosen Ones from ruining the Warrior’s day. How can you argue with that? Adrenaline Rush is one of my favorite “prep” Skills.
Inspire is cheap and cost-effective. It helps out against long, arduous fights by giving a little extra pep in everyone’s powers. With that said, this became my favorite Skill in Book of Dread.
Shield Wall is the expensive Skill used (at FULL Health) to divert all enemies’ attention to the Warrior. You need Shields, either Buckler or Tower Shield (sorry, no Parrying Dagger), as well as front-line combat positioning. It’s expensive but cool as fug. Now the greenskins know how I feel when one of their Orcish Elites issues a challenge and sends all my idiots scrambling to bump him off. Shield Wall also increases Damage Reduction by 25%, up to a max of 99% if paired with high AC and a Conjuror’s Eldritch Aegis.
For those who actually spent time with alternate gear builds and party compositions, a Warrior with Overwhelm can be a horrifying visage on the battlefield. It’s super-expensive and embarrassing to mess it up, but if you have at least one point of Quickness higher than your target, you throw two additional standard strikes upon that target. Each hit procs drain effects, stun attempts, and each one is modified by a Next Attack buff. It makes mincemeat out of anything. However, against the harshest of foes the Warrior requires a great deal of Quickness. For this reason, people shun and disregard Overwhelm. A Barbarian’s Boast, Ranger’s Swiftness, or Rogue’s Cripple are all options to bypass this issue.
Finally there are Passive Skills like Leadership and Armor Proficiency–one offensive and one defensive as per Book of Dread’s setup–but these satisfy the Warrior’s idiom nicely. Leadership is great for doubling your pleasure against a single target, perhaps superior to ordinary combat Skills when you’re saving up for an emergency Shield Wall or Defiance. Armor Proficiency just enhances the power of a Warrior in heavy gear, making those high Damage Reduction percentages possible.
None of the Warrior’s Skills ought to go away… but one or two, (Execute, Cleave) need to be retooled. Cleave, for instance, ought to be like Bloodlust, only that it gives the Warrior a second turn (or attack) if he manages to kill the target. This would grant a Warrior a second turn, something the plodding lug could really use.
Clerics are the stereotypical Paladin Class in Book of Dread, and about as annoying in their stereotyped grandeur. But they were also the first Class I used routinely in any Party Build. Unless a Sword is Consecrated (and most of those typically suck), the Cleric is not going near anything other than a mace. Heavy Armor, on the other hand, is a definite. Clerics can serve as moderately successful Tanks or front-line combatants, but a holy tool, a Censer, can be used in the Offhand as a means of pumping up their Healing Spell Power.
Both their Main Skills have Passive Skills to complement them, thus becoming staples of any Skill Build: Healing and Smite. These should not be stripped of their rank by changing how they operate. Healing cures poison and replenishes Health, while Benediction allows it to remove curses and ALL known ailments, including the Barbarian’s self-induced “Decreased Damage Reduction” effect from the Reckless Fury Skill. Not exactly as worthless as you might think, huh?
As for Smite, it always hits, deals extra havoc upon Undead, can be modified by the Inquisitor Mace and another one of those Elite Censers… and with the Passive Skill Wrath, can be made to Stun any aggressor. Smite becomes a traveling companion like Shotguns were in the original D00M.
Holy Light is great during the early days or any day, really, since it makes it harder for groups to strike you. The Blind effect (30%) is fixed, but it can deal damage to the Undead and always hits. This makes surviving long battles even more possible, although there are Gear Builds that allow Clerics to hose down single enemies with a massive Blindness penalty, so by that point Holy Light becomes antiquated.
Heal All is expensive and likely contains no advantages wrought from the Benediction Passive Skill. The only reason it exists is to satisfy most players’ desire for a spell that heals everybody all at once. I rarely use it.
Anoint is a good optional Skill if you have space for it. This pumps up an ally’s next attack by 75% of its normal output. Some rather sick combos are possible with it, but wait on it. It can help out a LOT, but in the early game other things help more.
Revive is a private shame–I never enter battle without it. The tricky part is having enough Power to cast it… as well as being able to keep the sucker alive and redirect enemy attentions elsewhere (or just get lucky), but suffering the indignity of a casualty keeps Revive in my Skill Set just in case something goes horribly awry. For a counterpoint to the usefulness or significance of Revive, I recall the original Final Fantasy prevented you from reviving characters in the midst of battle, which for the sake of realism would probably nail the coffin on Revive shut. I’d still miss her, though….
Litany of Pain… being that I often had a Mage or Barbarian or Rogue… or anybody else who did heavy damage and often delegated the Cleric to defensive/healing status, I rarely found a purpose for this one. For the situations where no Mage, Barbarian, or Rogue exist, maybe then.
Purify is a cheap trick that lets you cure Poison and Curses on everyone and grants 50% Reduction against Poison attacks. Again, this is great when you first start out or whenever you’re fighting those miserable Orc Shamans, but like Holy Light becomes antiquated by other things, notably a respectable Gear Build. Then again, if it ain’t perfect and you’re coming up against a Gorgon….
The last two Skills are for when people think they’re handling a Paladin and not a Cleric. Shield of Faith is just expensive enough to keep you from using it twice even if you have max Power. This is a front-line Skill meant to take some pressure off. To be honest, I was afraid to try it, chiefly because the description fails to advertise it as anything useful, at least for my purposes in keeping a Cleric as a ranged caster and healer.
Fervor suffers the same problem. It requires a Melee Weapon, but since I never pour Stat Points into Strength and think 60 Power is too high, I never think twice. Double the attack power in a single swing does not appeal to me. Now, if it became a Bonus like Increase Damage +100% for the battle….
The Passive Skills of the Cleric appear to affect two Skills. Several of the Skills in the Cleric’s catalog end up broken from this lack of attention. Fervor, for instance, would certainly catch my attention if it dealt extra damage based on Wrath’s Level (or simply dealt a Stun Effect), while Shield of Faith would be really cool if it spawned a residual regenerative bonus or treated the Cleric for status ailments with enough points in Benediction. Revive doesn’t have a great deal of power… why not allow Benediction to increase its healing by 3% per point? That way, it’s 100% fully healed character time! But such suggestions would surely throw off the balance of the Cleric, so just be judicious when retooling some of the lackluster Skills.
…The Mage is vicious. Also a good front-line combatant if you have the speed and strategy, even when limited to wearing light armor. Mages can equip either swords or staves, the latter of which serves as a ranged weapon when the magic is running low.
The first Skill we see is Freeze. Sounds redundant to have this lying around, but it punches a single target rather hard and is reasonably cheap. Freeze has a 1 in 4 shot at Stunning an opponent under normal circumstances, but that’s nothing to rely upon. Like most damage spells like Smite, existent Stun Chance is added to this number, so a 45% chance becomes 70% when Freeze is cast.
Fireball is like a Grenade from a Goblin Artificer, since it can singe an ally if you’re careless. This deals a punch to the center target and splash damage to adjacent spaces (except diagonal). It is reasonably inexpensive and deals fair damage to crowds. Being the cheapskate I am, I often preferred Fireball over Electrical Storm during the early campaign and only through its use did I learn to take full advantage of proper party positioning before every fight.
Electrical Storm is expensive but the reason everybody who champions a Mage champions the Mage. It deals a good shock to everything on the field, so it is often applied during major encounters. Like most Magi spells, it operates on Intellect.
Cosmic Prison can be a blessing or curse depending on the target. It always hits, deals damage, and gives a brief buff to Damage Reduction, but the enemy can resist the Stun effect if they have Stun Resistance. Cosmic Prison is great for pinning down opponents that can really trip up your odds at winning, like Acolytes, but you can’t quite follow up with the same extreme prejudice that you normally would. Still, a Rogue’s Coup de Grace is possible and you can concentrate your energies upon some other foe.
Invisibility is super-cool as a protection and for keeping oneself out of the way. It can be used on any member of the party, unlike the Rogue’s Hide Skill that is used upon oneself. If you need someone to stay out of the spotlight (like if they’re getting hammered and can’t recover on the very next turn) then shroud them with Invisibility. It lasts until the recipient’s next turn.
Arcane Armor is a cheap means of keeping a Mage alive through long excursions. It raises their Damage Reduction by 40%, effectively matching a Cleric or Warrior with a decent Gear Build. A Mage can make for a passable Tank alongside another armored ally, although most players lack the imagination to see the sucker as just a caster of lightning bolts, tucked in back where they assume it is safe.
Flickering Flames had occasional use. When wanting to buff everybody to dish hell back at the aggressors without lifting a finger, the Mage casts this on a player to get 100% Damage Reflection. This got added to existent levels, like 50% became 150%. I often found Gargoyles and Wraiths to be funny victims of this buff, but the Skill’s approach is in direct defiance to one’s preconceived notions of a bolt thrower.
Ha… Ensorcelled Blade is NOT a Melee-Range spell. It lets you take your sword, enchant it into flight… and then it swings viciously at one sucker four times. Accuracy is reduced by 25% for every swing (consider some preemptive buffs or compatible Gear Build) and it requires Strength instead of Intellect… but again, not all of the Mage’s Skills require Intellect. This nightmarish Skill is one of my personal favorites, because it let me play the Mage with alternate stat and skill builds. The other reason? I can cast this from the back row, so while I’m not swinging with someone in front of me, I’m likely busy with other spells to bother with that vulgar shit.
Incinerate is that Spell where Monty Python goes, “Now for something completely different.” It’s an Intellect-oriented melee-range spell that pumps one unlucky sot full of magical fire. It’s cheap and gruesomely efficient, but you can only spray the front-line suckers and has no bells and whistles beyond sheer damage potential. If a Mage is ever caught on the front-line for any reason, this spell better be the reason.
Power Siphon gets plenty of flak. Nobody knows why a Mage would cast it multiple times (a 100% accuracy rating helps out) against a large party–at least three enemies–but there you have it: a spell that sucks out the enemy’s Power. I hear the back-row suckers are far less annoying when they don’t have the power to cast back. Humans tend to recover a little faster but everything else is fair game; when an enemy is “powerless” they rely on their normal attacks. Sometimes, they can’t even do those. Power Siphon is also handy for recovering fast from Electrical Storm, so I often paired these two together.
Spell Mastery would be handier if it happened more often. A chance to negate the cost of a Spell altogether? Sign me up! However, I prefer a defensive caster with Shielding. It negates one blow of any amount of damage at the cost of 10 Power. Now, if that happened more often….
A Mage’s strongest selection of spells corresponds to the stereotyped idiom of dealing the most amount of carnage for any character, but the spells with intricate effects, as well as some of the tricky-looking ones, don’t have enough going for them to elicit anyone’s respect. They’re pretty much there… until a creative strategist comes along and messes around with them.
Rangers are the reason I survived and defeated my first campaign so many years ago on Newgrounds’ version of the game. They are agile and capable of hedging between sniping offenses and healing. They can wear medium armor and handle swords, axes, spears, bows, and crossbows. Their claim to fame revolves around archery but they can stick it out in the front-lines provided they have company. Rangers also equip quickness-enhancing quivers on their backs no matter their weapon.
Pierce is an amazing Skill for the archer on a budget, both in terms of arrows and in Power. At 30 Points, this deals a standard hit to the front and back in one deft stroke, mowing through one jerk and striking another. This nifty pup needs no changing.
Nature’s Balm grants full protection against poison and grants a regenerative effect based on Intellect. Why people pass on this I have no idea. Patience, maybe? It needs time to take effect, but this is great when you don’t want to end battles with 30% health per war dog, getting ready for a boss fight with no Shrine of Healing to spare. Keep one sucker alive until you’re fully healed.
Healing Lore got me out of a couple pinches. No, honest. It is nowhere near as potent as the Cleric’s Heal, but it cures poison and restores double of what Nature’s Balm does in one round. Healing Lore helps when alternatives to emergency healing are evaporated. Still, most Party Builds would negate the necessity of Healing Lore because most sensible types have a Conjuror or Cleric in them.
Hunter’s Prowess deals a little extra damage and doubles the pain against Deep Creatures, Rangers’ niche target. This applies to Legendary Monsters such as the Hydra, so don’t pass it up just because it deals only 10% extra damage. The 10% Lethality may also be compounded upon existent Lethality to broaden the odds of success. Hunter’s Prowess will, of course, get switched with either Pin or Poisoned Arrow whenever there are other targets.
Hail of Arrows throws two shots per space at 70% accuracy per shot. It’s expensive and annoying to have it work right the first time, but given some padding it should make crowds less harrowing. I learned to stick with techniques that guaranteed better accuracy….
Pin requires a bow, like Hail of Arrows, but it deals less damage. What good is that? What is good about Pin is that it ALWAYS STUNS A TARGET, provided there is no resistance to tread through. Pin’s chances against a resistant target, say a Greenskin or Dwarf, increases with the amount of ordinary Stun Chance available. Pin is great when you’ve tooled your Quickness with the Rogue so that you deal Coup de Grace kills on everything.
Force of Nature requires a Melee Weapon, seemingly against the trigger-happy idiom of the Ranger. Spears are applicable, as always. Melee Weapons also benefit from having Hunter’s Prowess, which is compatible with both types of weapons. Anyway, the 60% accuracy is evil as is the Power cost, but the chance bypass a Dwarf Commander’s impossible Damage Reduction is a chance I’m willing to take! It does strike three times. Again, people will ignore it because they forget all too easily that spears are melee weapons too.
Envenomed Arrow is one of my favorites, being that I often hanged out during battle for untold lengths of time. I peppered my steaks with some secret sauce and let them mold over. It can work even against Dwarves, makes mincemeat out of Humans and Greenskins, but the Undead are resistant, and some Deep Creatures are either very resistant or immune. One of the reasons I raise Intellect on my Ranger as opposed to either Dex or Strength.
Focus, another underrated gem, restores 25 Power per use. If you prefer to equip nothing but Power Regeneration, you’ll have an extra Skill slot for something different. But I often searched far and wide for the Assassin outfit, or tried to get other kinds of buffs from my Gear Build. Besides, do you know how much Power a Ranger goes through?
Swiftness is another overlooked clover that ensures you get first strike capabilities. When the group seems overwhelming, the first few moves you make are crucial. Try the Cleric’s Holy Light or set up a Shield Wall for that first round… try to Dismember the ringleader to keep him from one-shotting your Mage before that Arcane Armor gets set up. Even if Quickness can be enhanced through gear, you can get slowed down by Arachnoids and some guy named Garin knows how to lead an Onslaught….
For Passives, the Ranger is not without Creature’s Lore. This occasionally Procs when an attack is dealt, dipping the enemy’s Damage Reduction below 0% where applicable since it removes 40 of those. That one gets more fanfare than Vitality, which at highest level grants a regenerative bonus based on a percentage of max health. That makes a Ranger survive anything short of nuclear holocaust. I would start off with Creature’s Lore once I got my preferred Skill build.
Rangers are the only reason I continued playing Monsters’ Den: Book of Dread, strictly because they helped me survive my first nightmarish campaign. Of the classes, they demand the fewest changes.
Rogues apply stealth as a means of battle. They’re geared toward extreme prejudice… heavy damage, strike hard and fade away without a trace. Kind of the reason I always made my Rogue female, because the graphic provided was perfect for the role. Rogues wear medium armor and handle swords, maces, bows, and crossbows. Rogues can handle daggers that enhance quickness and draw from both strength and dexterity (the reason I concentrate upon endurance and intellect).
Right off the bat, Rogues apply Poison. It gradually gets rid of its target if not entirely immune. To one-up the Ranger, Rogues may apply Poison to any weapon. As a staple of the class, this better not change or get removed.
Piercing blows through the Pierce Defenses Skill comes second. It’s a little more expensive, but a single hit at full accuracy that bypasses any Damage Reduction is quite the feat. Constructs and armored Dwarves and Humans are in for a treat. This needs no change, especially since any weapon may apply.
Sneak Attack is designed for the melee Rogue who sees a back-row annoyance and wished that bow was strung. It is a little more powerful than a standard blow and can be dealt from any point on the battlefield. Now, it used to be a skill that dealt extra anatomical damage upon a foe who got denied any dex/dodge bonuses. If a melee attack that goes ranged seems redundant, make it like a melee/ranged single attack that, if you have superior quickness to the target, you deal extra damage.
Flash Powder is unique in that neither Stun or Blind added effects from your standard melee attack will improve upon the power of the Flash Powder itself. It will always be 50 Blind and 50% Stun. Hence, it can be antiquated very easily by a superior Gear Build. Then again, this Skill is a lifesaver in the beginning when those cutting-edge Gear Builds are impossible to come by. I still think you can halve the cost, though.
Create Opening deals less damage but orients another ally into performing an added attack. It works like the Warrior’s Leadership. Wouldn’t it be funny if you pulled this, then the Warrior procked Leadership and the Rogue struck again? For its price, I don’t think Create Opening is that great, because it hinges upon the ability of another fighter. The Rogue is designed to facilitate the sort of carnage that is now asked for in other guys who are likely built towards some other function. Maybe that’s why I don’t put Create Opening into my Skill Builds, or was it the fact that this requires a melee weapon? Can’t you set a jerk up with a timed arrow shot?
Hide might not prevent splash damage, but it certainly has the best (+100%) Next Attack buff and it keeps the Rogue from being anyone’s punching bag for a second or so. As flimsy as mine are, I always have Hide set up if only for emergencies. As usual, I always set up my attacks with Hide before dealing them. Again, patience.
Sap Strength is that special little gem that let me beat the Corruptor demon time and time again without having to wade through mirror images of myself. How? Dark Mirror is (gasp!) Power-intensive. Sap Strength also prevents Neophytes from becoming into worse threats. If there’s a drawback to this ability, it’s that you can’t use bows or crossbows to use it.
Thieves’ Luck prevents me from pulling my hair out whenever I tried to get my Warrior to deal that crucial Bloodlust blow and ended up WHIFFING at 99% Accuracy. It also helps set up those difficult, expensive attacks like Ensorcelled Blade or Force of Nature. Thieves’ Luck is always in one of my slots whenever I got a Rogue around.
Coup de Grace gets fanfare among anybody who uses Rangers, Mages, or Clerics who can stun adversaries. It also gets fanfare among archers and knife-wielders. Unfortunately, it gets no fanfare from dolts who lack any sense of timing.
Cripple enables Overwhelm and also helps get the jump on an otherwise agile opponent. It deals shit for damage and doesn’t kill anything, though. It can, however, be used with any weapon. That’s good. I didn’t use it a whole lot, but I can see it in grand schemes to drop or debilitate an adversary without worrying about getting retaliated.
While I had few problems with Poisoncraft, Elusiveness was a problem. This made life drearier for everyone else in the party, because havoc got redirected toward them more often than not, which compounded the damage they suffered. This refers to ranged attackers who occasionally took a potshot at the rogue but got redirected three times toward the ranger who barely survived the first volley. Hindrance. Poisoncraft is far easier to handle. On the other hand, Rogues are flimsy in any position on the field….
Barbarians are one of two new classes after the original Monsters’ Den, which had the first five described above. Barbarians can wear medium armor but not shields. They’re geared towards making heavy holes and disrupting the enemy’s ability to retaliate proper. They can equip swords, maces, axes… and that’s it. Of the classes, I have had the worst amount of trouble with these jerks. Unless severe amendments are made in Monsters’ Den: Godfall, forget ever seeing me try a Barbarian again. These guys took plenty of hits before I learned to despise them.
Let’s begin with the essential “big” problem: Reckless Fury has too large a penalty for most people to ever consider using, especially for routine use, or to have displayed as a first Skill! That reduction of 50% ought to be revised to something like 30% or 20%. Not even the D&D Barbarian suffered that harsh a penalty. You know what a -2 AC penalty is? 10% improved likelihood of getting hit, roundabouts. In any case, I gave it a whirl ages ago, shook with reckless fury and got cooked in that same round before I could unleash hot fury. I never used the damn thing again. Odd, then, how the Cleric’s Benediction-fueled Heal spell can get rid of the effect like it was an ailment. I found this out on a fluke… was it a glitch? Probably was….
On the other hand, Barbarians are nowhere near lame, for they get the exquisite Charge ability. Being without ranged weapons means their feet have to improvise. It deals a 50% shot at Stunning the target and deals ample damage to boot. Barbarians really paved the way toward proper battlefield placement each and every fight.
Dismember is another Skill I use with religious fervor, being that this sucker is flimsier than kittens. This kind of ability looks like something the Warrior would want to trade with the Barbarian for that Overwhelm attack. I digress: Dismember is the means of which to survive a melee with a boss… or to tone down any villain, to be honest. It’s pricey for what it’s worth, but if there’s a drawback to its effect, nobody will ever search for it.
Pulverize is not quite a favorite, strictly because I always have a Ranger with Creature’s Lore at the ready. In case that ain’t happening, Pulverize can certainly do. It also deals a little extra damage compared to its cousin, Dismember. Still, a 20% penalty to Damage Reduction doesn’t seem like much. Now, if this penalty extended below the 0% mark….
Jostle seems far too… I don’t know… necessary for everyone else? Only the Barbarian can switch spaces with another character. Why this happens at the cost of Power remains to be known. The only situation where it seems appropriate is when the Minotaur’s Labyrinth ability shuffles everyone into a bad, bad situation. Even then, people shrug this thing off. Another situation where it could apply was when the Barbarian needs to get the fuck away from all the haters slapping him from side to side. That’s about it.
Boast is NOT a “ranged attack for the Barbarian.” This only applies if there is a character with ranged capabilities, like rod-holding magi or archers. It can trigger a melee brawl in melee range. It’s primary use is to take an enemy’s quickness down a tad, helping to coordinate attacks before the hapless sot can react. It can pave the way to an Overwhelm or Execute before the fiend can use a devastating blow upon your party. This ability is quite handy and should be seen in case there are any Barbarians in the new game.
Whirlwind, seen in every variant that spawned from the pages of D&D up to and including World or Warcraft and Diablo II, is that special technique designed to obliterate a number of jerks. It deals heavy damage to one and lesser damage to adjacent punks. Everyone cheers about this thing as the definitive Barbarian Skill that should never be left out of one’s repertoire. To my astonishment and disgust. I don’t mind the accuracy or its similarities and even advantages over Cleave, but I don’t get a whole lot of use out of these multi-strike multi-foe attacks as some of these players do. It’s probably my approach more than anything.
Enrage looks great on paper, or during Tactical Mode when you don’t have Power regeneration… but to be quite frank, I hate it how I turn the ability on and EVERY MONSTER IGNORES THE BARBARIAN JUST BECAUSE I WANT TO RESTORE MY POWER FOR THAT ROUND! Yes, it happened to me several times. Ordinarily, the Barbarian is getting hit left and right, but I don’t bother with this as I often have other tricks to help me get by.
So what of Intimidate? That lovely Skill that boosts Quickness by 10 and prevents other creatures from targeting the Barbarian if another is available? This one caused as many headaches as the Rogue’s Elusiveness Passive Skill (see above) and often failed to protect the Barbarian from getting killed anyway. It was also very expensive. Now, if I tapped that and Reckless Fury in a perfect world, I’d be an ass kicker, right? No, the other party members would get attacked too much, eventually succumbing to a constant onslaught within the number of rounds needed to arrange for my ass kicker. I surrendered all use of that damned Intimidate Skill eons ago.
Last Stand is a brutal technique, and it adds onto Lethality which is always good. Sadly, you need to be in critical condition (20% or below) before you can use it. This, in turn, makes it way to risky to use. It also never comes up, considering most fiends can make wet work of a Barbarian in three hits, instead of five or six. If Last Stand exists as it does now for Godfall, either getting rid of the Power cost or alleviating the Health requirements (perhaps both) can at least salvage the Skill and make it attractive for players.
As for the Passive Powers, Brutality is always fun but is essentially a random proc that you cannot rely upon. As for Vengeance, it only provides a “Next Attack” bonus of of 30%, which is okay, but a little conservative. Better that than nothing at all if a Cleric is unavailable. Not to be ironic, the Barbarian works best if there’s a Cleric in the party… which I don’t find surprising.
Barbarians are among the biggest offenders for making any party featuring them into a total all-or-nothing crap-shoot. If this game involved cash bets, I would never play Blackjack with this idiot at my side.
Conjurors are available only through Kongregate, which fueled my ire considering they’re the better half of the new character classes in Monsters’ Den: Book of Dread. I first started playing on Newgrounds, where there were only Barbarians….
Conjurors summon creatures onto the scene, which help in evening out the odds against the unruly horde from the warrens below. They use light armor, swords, maces, and staves. Conjurors prefer the safety of the back row for the most part, letting their creations do the job for them.
Dire Wolves are expendable front-line creatures that die too easily and deal passable damage. All they know is fighting, but they have no special abilities beyond that. If they did, they’d look more attractive out there.
Wall of Shadows fills every empty space on your side with an illusion. If their turn comes up, they can Curse an enemy to suffer 50% of its damage dealt to you, or Balance Karma for an ally, thus removing a curse. While Clerics are straightforward in removing Curses, a Shadow has the added benefit of being a meatshield, an extra target the enemy must handle. Thus Wall of Shadows was often in my Conjuror’s repertoire well after gaining the other abilities.
Manasprites are weak melee fighters better suited toward restoring allies’ Power by 15 per casting of Mana Font. This is useful in Tactical Mode but seems to pale in comparison to what a Bloodsprite can do: heal at a decent amount on every character with Blood Font. Even in Tactical Mode.
Wargolems get heavy praise during the infinite battle scenario as a Meat-Shield capable of handling tons of havoc and dishing out decent damage. Their presence in the future game is guaranteed, so I won’t bother to wax strategic about these guys.
Vortex is a summoning that happens on an enemy square. It always hits, dealing damage and knocking the sucker to an adjacent square… unless those squares are occupied, wherein it suffers 20% extra damage. Applications range from keeping the pressure off melee fighters by displacing melee attackers to that elusive “push” that lands the body of the Hydra directly in front, straight into melee range. Vortex is useful when the Conjuror has something like the Book of Dread in the Off Hand and a Mace in the other but still wants the ability to attack from the back-row.
Banish is incredibly useful against Acolytes, transformed Neophytes, and even the Corruptor’s Dark Mirror hell-spawn. It instantly destroys a summoned creature. Naturally, it’s aimed at the enemies’ machinations. I stopped overlooking this sucker when I took it for a whirl in a human-populated den.
Refresh Energies is required for creature maintenance. It cures Curses, Poison, restores Health and replenishes Power. This one’s a no-brainer.
Eldritch Aegis, barring the Mage’s superior Arcane Armor, grants 15% extra Damage Reduction to everybody… making it the best Conjuror’s spell EVAR!!!11! Well, no. It’s all a matter of preference, but who wouldn’t prefer to have a thicker skin against an army of thick heads?
Call Soul leaves not just one, but two characters with little Power to start the next round… though it brings them to full health, which is why that happens. I guess in Tactical Mode, Call Soul is akin to being revived to a Death Sentence….
The Passive Skills are rather bland for Conjurors, either improving the attack power or the health of conjured creatures. Those sprites and wolves are downright flimsy, so I often start with Augment Health before Augment Strength gets a single point.
In all, Monsters’ Den: Book of Dread was one of those Flash Games that made me believe that Flash Games are actually worth the time. If Godfall’s line-up of skills needs changing, it’d be the Barbarian first, right before the Cleric and then the Rogue. Mages and Rangers compete for the bottom of the priority list.
about 8 months ago
well im just going to leave a comment on the classes that need improving BIG TIME:
warrior: they’re very good at surviving enemy attacks and have a few really good skills like, bloodlust, adrenaline and execute but that’s about it. skills like overwhelm are pretty useless as warriors are often the slowest out of every character (including your enemies)which means you don’t get the bonus 2 strikes.
^
inspire: it is an okay skill but you don’t actually need to to use it very often. in fights against legendary creatures like medusa or minotaur where they just dont die, its usefull but in gerenal your your enemies are killed by the time you get to your warrior
Cleric: im not saying the cleric is bad, infact i think its kinda essential, but, the revive skill is pretty much stupid as it only gave about 20% health and then before you know it, the persons dead again. compared to the conjuror, its call soul skill revives someone with all their health but no power. and id rather have a character back on their feet at least.
mage: okay plain and simple, IMPROVE THE DAM FIRE SKILLS!!! if you have a back row mage, which you often do, you cant use a fire skill really cos it burns the rest of your guys to a singe and does barely any damage to your enemies.